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100 Points of Light: Swami's Brent-Era countdown

 
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swamiGD80s
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: 100 Points of Light: Swami's Brent-Era countdown Reply with quote

Announcing the largest list yet - a
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only. Compiling and ranking the list will take about a month I am projecting. I hope to be able to start revealing the list around Labor Day, with review summaries for each show, concluding in October 2013.

Here is the gist of the methodology:

1. NOMINATIONs: I am (subjectively) compiling a list of all standout shows worthy of consideration, and I have already asked a couple of you for suggestions. I am hoping to have a nomination list of approximately 250.

2. SWAMI-RATED: Using my proprietary rating system, each nominated show will receive a rating - between 1.0 and 5.0 stars, in 0.25-star increments. Shows will then be grouped by ranking category. This rating system was previously described, and incorporates objective as well as subjective components.

3. INTRA-YEAR RANKING: Within each swami-rating group, shows will be ranked within each year based on set criterion.

4. "ROLLING 12" selection. From step 3, the top selections from each year will be considered from which one show will be selected as the standout "point of light." The selected show will then be crossed off the list and the next best from it's year will replace it in the rolling-12 available choices for next on the list, and so on. This will repeat for each Swami-rating category as the list moves downward.

Notes:

A few issues that I will address up-front:

A: DIFFERENT TOURS/YEARS: While no, there will be no "quota" for representing different parts of the Brent Era in the list, consideration will be given to different years. For example, the things we look for in a standout 1979 show are not necessarily the same things that we want to find in a 1988 show. It is Swami's view that GD performances must always be appreciated in their proper context, and not compared "apples-to-apples" with a performance several years apart.

B: SOUND QUALITY: It is simply impossible to evaluate performance without giving bias based on sound quality. Unfortunately yes, many shows will not make the cut or be further down the list due to marginal sound quality of the available recordings. This is a reality that we all must accept with making these lists, period. I like to believe however, and would submit to you, that I will not be giving shows "credit" or moving them up higher based on excellent sound quality. In other words, sound quality can work to a show's detriment, but not in it's favor - when compared against other shows with adequate sound.

C. SUBJECTIVITY: Yes, this is a Swami list - and will have a heavy dose of subjectivity. However, wherever possible I am (subjectively) creating objective criterion for my selections - and this will result in my most objective list ever, to date. I expect that this objectivity will result in some surprises and deviations from previous lists.

D. HISTORICAL FACTOR: Shows will not be given extra benefit due to historical significance, circumstances outside of the performance, or popularity due to song breakouts or other reasons (i.e. widely circulated).

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: 100 Points of Light: Swami's Brent-Era countdown Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
B: SOUND QUALITY: It is simply impossible to evaluate performance without giving bias based on sound quality. Unfortunately yes, many shows will not make the cut or be further down the list due to marginal sound quality of the available recordings. This is a reality that we all must accept with making these lists, period. I like to believe however, and would submit to you, that I will not be giving shows "credit" or moving them up higher based on excellent sound quality. In other words, sound quality can work to a show's detriment, but not in it's favor - when compared against other shows with adequate sound.

The Affirmative Action of the music world.


Overall, this seems like a grand project which fits your shoes well.
I will send out a mass e-mail to let people know about this project, so they can give you suggestions.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what are the nominees thus far?

Can a brother get an update?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I vote 'Yes' for all the above.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further, I submit after recent re-verification that the Providence 9/7-9/87 are worthy Brent era considerations. Much of this tour is worthy and MSG will get the NY bias vote every time but... My own improprietary system has returned me to these shows I had tapes of and confirmed that they are indeed crispy critters.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, MSG and certain venues (hampton) do often get a bias...
I believe Swami's methods will eradicate such bias, however. It doesn't figure, at least directly, into scoring. It may effect the energy (or perceived energy) of a night/performance, but you cannot remove it 100% from the equation. It's good to go for the 99% solution.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, then perfect will not be the enemy of the good? Ex-cellent.

Listening to 10/28/84 today. Has to be one of 100

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hugo Fugazi wrote:
Further, I submit after recent re-verification that the Providence 9/7-9/87 are worthy Brent era considerations. Much of this tour is worthy and MSG will get the NY bias vote every time but... My own improprietary system has returned me to these shows I had tapes of and confirmed that they are indeed crispy critters.


You feel that all 3 nights at Providence should be nominated? I am looking at 1987 currently, and this Fall tour is very tough in terms of differentiating nominees. For example, are any of the Philly shows worthy of nomination? '87 is surprisingly tough...please advise.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hugo Fugazi wrote:
So, then perfect will not be the enemy of the good? Ex-cellent.

Listening to 10/28/84 today. Has to be one of 100


Good show. I was thinking about that BCT Fall '84 run as I've been revisiting the late spring '84 Marin County run (3/28-4/1), and it occurred to me - as controversial as it may be - that the Marin run may actually be BETTER overall. At the very least I think it's a close call.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Yes, MSG and certain venues (hampton) do often get a bias...
I believe Swami's methods will eradicate such bias, however. It doesn't figure, at least directly, into scoring. It may effect the energy (or perceived energy) of a night/performance, but you cannot remove it 100% from the equation. It's good to go for the 99% solution.


The best thing about my system is that there is no voting Exclamation Laughing

I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that venue is totally irrelevant with regard to the Swami rating of a show - except for, as Koch alluded to, maybe to a very small degree with an AUD recording the acoustics of the arena, in terms of evaluating the band's energy/cohesion level (Low/Med/High).

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
You feel that all 3 nights at Providence should be nominated?

I second the 9/9/87 nomination...
I want to say 9/12/87 was good too, but I could just be having a moment.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="swamiGD80s"]
Hugo Fugazi wrote:

You feel that all 3 nights at Providence should be nominated? I am looking at 1987 currently, and this Fall tour is very tough in terms of differentiating nominees. For example, are any of the Philly shows worthy of nomination? '87 is surprisingly tough...please advise.


I am pretty sure that we have totally different opinions regarding song selection, so you'll have to listen for yourself. 9/9 is great & I also think Bucket>Fire night has a lot to offer, but not sure about top 100. I have always thought these were better playing than Philly. The SQ of these is also very sweet.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
]

Good show. I was thinking about that BCT Fall '84 run as I've been revisiting the late spring '84 Marin County run (3/28-4/1), and it occurred to me - as controversial as it may be - that the Marin run may actually be BETTER overall. At the very least I think it's a close call.


The 11/30 has got a great 1st set that is almost like a 2nd. It would be easier for me if I was doing it to choose the 100 best sets b/c there are so few shows where you get both sets that are stellar.

Best thing about your project is that it calls for a re-visit of shows or calls out ones not checked out before. Been re-reading some of the write-ups on shows in my DB and getting the same result.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4/1/84 was awesome...

As for BCT run, give me the 2nd or 3rd over the other nights, any day.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hugo Fugazi wrote:
swamiGD80s wrote:
]

Good show. I was thinking about that BCT Fall '84 run as I've been revisiting the late spring '84 Marin County run (3/28-4/1), and it occurred to me - as controversial as it may be - that the Marin run may actually be BETTER overall. At the very least I think it's a close call.


The 11/30 has got a great 1st set that is almost like a 2nd. It would be easier for me if I was doing it to choose the 100 best sets b/c there are so few shows where you get both sets that are stellar.

Best thing about your project is that it calls for a re-visit of shows or calls out ones not checked out before. Been re-reading some of the write-ups on shows in my DB and getting the same result.


I definitely agree that 10-30-84 has an awesome First Set. Cassidy is incredible. But the 2nd Set is more back down to earth - standard fare.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Hugo Fugazi"]
swamiGD80s wrote:
Hugo Fugazi wrote:

You feel that all 3 nights at Providence should be nominated? I am looking at 1987 currently, and this Fall tour is very tough in terms of differentiating nominees. For example, are any of the Philly shows worthy of nomination? '87 is surprisingly tough...please advise.


I am pretty sure that we have totally different opinions regarding song selection, so you'll have to listen for yourself. 9/9 is great & I also think Bucket>Fire night has a lot to offer, but not sure about top 100. I have always thought these were better playing than Philly. The SQ of these is also very sweet.


I can substitute 9/8 in the nominees for 9/24 if you recommend this.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: nominations (tentatively) complete Reply with quote

Nominee list updated, to include 390 shows. Exclamation Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I split the nominee list and made it sticky...
Just to be cleaner.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tough road ahead Swami - 3 out of 4 must die. Shocked

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decisions, decisions... that is tough. I think it will provide a pretty damn good list in the end though!

Swami was my mentor back in college about the Brent Era, before him I only had a few bootlegs from outside of the "Golden Era". What really got me was Jerry's playing was, in my opinion, better, technically... perhaps it was just the, in general, more amped up GD that I liked. Somewhat structured and ready to blow (pun intended) out of the starting gates.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hugo Fugazi wrote:
Tough road ahead Swami - 3 out of 4 must die. Shocked


Indeed Hugo - and I'm already anticipating the shock that some will have at how low some of the famous/obvious choices will fall down in the list - and even miss the list altogether. The methodology involved is not focused on fine tuning "how good" the performance is in terms of each band member's musicianship, etc, or how memorable based on a song breakout or official release. Some of my favorites will also fall down or miss the list, which is just fine. The top shows at the end of this exercise will best fit the model of the "ideal" Brent Era show. That doesn't mean that the boys were more "on" in #10 than they were in #60 necessarily, if that makes sense.

I've had a 4-day break from GD and I am super geared up for much more listening over the next several weeks. Anytime you guys wanna sync up for some tunes let me know.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be out of town for the next to weekend (he says to the burglars), but after that I'm jonesin' to get back in on an LP. I may be coming out of my hiatus.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How's about an update for the masses??
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
How's about an update for the masses??


Everything is on schedule for the list to be compiled in early-to-mid November, with release in time for the holidays. I've been listening chronologically within each year, and am now entrenched in the Summer Tours. Re-listening to many of the nominees has been enlightening as expected.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been absent from the pub for awhile but I'm looking forward to the list and countdown from the swami. Successfully remembered my password after quite a few attempts Very Happy Top 100 Brent shows sounds great...think I might work my way down the list. Always love some Brentski, in fact all these years later it's the era I'm still the most interested in and get the most enjoyment out of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chingsinkly wrote:
Been absent from the pub for awhile but I'm looking forward to the list and countdown from the swami. Successfully remembered my password after quite a few attempts Very Happy Top 100 Brent shows sounds great...think I might work my way down the list. Always love some Brentski, in fact all these years later it's the era I'm still the most interested in and get the most enjoyment out of it.


Welcome back man! In case you didn't see the announcement, 5 shows will be announced every Mon, Wed and Fri starting this coming Monday with #s 96-100. This will allow for some discussion along the way, so hope you will "chime in." I have my bullet-proof vest and helmet ready.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! I will definitely be "chiming in". I like the idea of rolling it out over a period of time, especially this time of year. For some reason my GD listening rate goes way up in the fall / winter. 100 is a big number and I'm sure to find plenty of shows I haven't heard or just don't remember. Should be a good time!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome back dude!
One thing I really like about this is it does a fair job of taking overrated shows out of the list... shows that are unique for some reason, like the rebirth of Cryptical, but actually lacking as far as complete shows go.

This also means shows that we love for specific sequences will not make the list... because if the entire 1st set is weak, and the post-space is weak... is it really worthy of being a great "show"?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:

This also means shows that we love for specific sequences will not make the list... because if the entire 1st set is weak, and the post-space is weak... is it really worthy of being a great "show"?


Good point, for example 10-17-83 would fall into this category for me. Great Sugaree and Deal, decent first set but the rest stinks especially compared to the rest of the month imo. Seems many consider it a great show. The hunter matrix has 143,721 downloads on archive (however they calculate that since there isn't an option to openly download the show). This show has moments but not an all time "great show"...to my ears at least.

Also I think 9-6-80 is considered a great show by many, awesome Sugaree but I've often wondered if it gets more attention because it's just a damn marathon. I'd take the show from 2 days prior in Providence over the Lewiston show...big part of the reason I'm excited for the list, I know there will be shows I've never heard and I'll be asking myself "Why haven't I stumbled across this yet". Gotta love this band and the decades of constantly evolving music they left us with, allowing us to have legitimate projects on specific eras, years, songs etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with everything you just said, regarding those shows.

9/4/80 is Jerry on crack... but I will say Phil is unfortunately off his game in that one.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the absence of Phil is disappointing but Jerry was absolutely locked in the entire night. That Goin' down the road smokes Jerry Rocks
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Swami once put it... He was on point.

He really was. Clearly one of his personal best nights.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am honestly interested in this project. It is the deadhead version of P90X. Then to actually narrow down shows with a strict bias, is even more intense. Swami is the Tony Horton of deadheadland. Remember guys, 6 pack abs are only a Sugaree away!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who is Tony Horton?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Who is Tony Horton?


He is the guy that came up with P90X. At least that is what came up when I googled it last night.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! Ok. Good analogy!
Swami is da man.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Folks, there is a delay. The countdown is not ready for release starting tomorrow. I may need up to (but not more than) an additional week. I will make up the time in the release schedule, and release an updated schedule once finalized. Sorry for the delay, but I assure you that it is warranted - and accuracy is of paramount importance.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Army we always said...
"Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast".

Do it right, once through.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this some sort of ploy to build anticipation? I mean what the heck...

Just kidding, no need to apologize man take your time Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chingsinkly wrote:
Is this some sort of ploy to build anticipation? I mean what the heck...

Just kidding, no need to apologize man take your time Very Happy


The countdown will begin a week from today, Nov 18th. 5 songs every other day until the schedule is caught up with what was posted. Still top 5 in Xmas Day.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you mean 5 shows every other day...

I'm excited.

Everyone prepare to have your heart broken on some shows you love, and be surprised by some you've never heard before!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have returned for this special event. Let it begin. First, though, let me dry my pants.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome back Zeph! Certainly a special event, many thanks to you swami Cheers

Is this the thread for discussion of the pick's as they are counted down ?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chingsinkly wrote:
Welcome back Zeph! Certainly a special event, many thanks to you swami Cheers

Thanks! And, yeah: I'm looking forward to sampling your take on the best of the Brentski era, Swami. The 1st 5 you've posted already include 2 I attended. I'll be dialing up the other 3 tonight.

chingsinkly wrote:
Is this the thread for discussion of the pick's as they are counted down ?

I was wondering the same thing....

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swami will be authoring discussion threads for each grouping of five shows as he releases them.

And definitely a welcome back to Zephyr, the "Godfather" of GD forums!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Swami will be authoring discussion threads for each grouping of five shows as he releases them.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zephyr wrote:
chingsinkly wrote:
Welcome back Zeph! Certainly a special event, many thanks to you swami Cheers

Thanks! And, yeah: I'm looking forward to sampling your take on the best of the Brentski era, Swami. The 1st 5 you've posted already include 2 I attended. I'll be dialing up the other 3 tonight.

chingsinkly wrote:
Is this the thread for discussion of the pick's as they are counted down ?

I was wondering the same thing....


Awesome! I'm guessing you were at the Maine shows (?). Sorry about the dis-organization, but the threads entitled "Points of Light #s X-Y" are the discussion threads for each set of 5. I will try to synchronize the discussion thread closer to the official postings going forward, so that feedback can begin right away. By the end of this countdown, I should have this down like a SWISS WATCH.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to get seriously organized.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! That's great!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: 100 Points of Light: Swami's Brent-Era countdown Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
2. SWAMI-RATED: Using my proprietary rating system, each nominated show will receive a rating - between 1.0 and 5.0 stars, in 0.25-star increments. Shows will then be grouped by ranking category. This rating system was previously described, and incorporates objective as well as subjective components.

Can you point me to the thread containing the rating system?

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't seem to find it, but I know I've discussed it with Swami...

I know the following:
0 - 1 points for "energy/substance", which is his subjective meter. He rates a show either "low" (0 points), "medium" (0.5 points), or "high" (1 points). Obviously, this is hugely important, and no low rated shows will break into the top 100, whereas a handful of mediums might slip in.

The rest of the points are basically based on setlist issues, like a 6 song 1st set is a huge ding... the powerslot choices... points for extended jams... etc.
He can break that down, or just pointed to wherever it was already broken down.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the interest of disclosure, the components of the rating system are as follows:

First Set Length: 0 / 0.5 / 1.0
Energy/Cohesiveness: 0 / 0.5 / 1.0 (subjective component)
Second Set full stoppages: 0 / 0.25 / 0.5
Oddity or Thematic Jam: 0 / 0.5
Power Slot: 0 / 0.5
Ballad Slot: 0 / 0.5
Jerry Berry: 0 / 0.5
Dark Bob: 0 / 0.5

First Set Deductions: 0.25 each (3 possible scenarios)
Second Set Deductions: 0.25 each (2 possible scenarios)

Highest Score possible 5.0 and then down by increments of 0.25. All Points of Light received 4.25 or higher ratings. Tiebreakers factored heavily into the ranking of the list.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to point out, because it's not clear, 2nd step stoppages are a bad thing, in the rating system.

So, a seemless set would get the full 0.5 points possible in that category.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Just to point out, because it's not clear, 2nd step stoppages are a bad thing, in the rating system.

So, a seemless set would get the full 0.5 points possible in that category.


Yes, or if only 1 stoppage. 1 "free" stoppage is allowed.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
In the interest of disclosure, the components of the rating system are as follows:

First Set Length: 0 / 0.5 / 1.0
Energy/Cohesiveness: 0 / 0.5 / 1.0 (subjective component)
Second Set full stoppages: 0 / 0.25 / 0.5
Oddity or Thematic Jam: 0 / 0.5
Power Slot: 0 / 0.5
Ballad Slot: 0 / 0.5
Jerry Berry: 0 / 0.5
Dark Bob: 0 / 0.5

First Set Deductions: 0.25 each (3 possible scenarios)
Second Set Deductions: 0.25 each (2 possible scenarios)

Highest Score possible 5.0 and then down by increments of 0.25. All Points of Light received 4.25 or higher ratings. Tiebreakers factored heavily into the ranking of the list.

Thanks for the info. But now I'm full of questions. Laughing For example, what are the break-points for "First Set Length"? Does a show with one oddity get .25, but two oddities get .5? What happens with three oddities? What is a "Jerry Berry" or a "Dark Bob"? What are the deduction scenarios? Can you use a specific show to provide an example of top-to-bottom scoring? (9/7/85 would be an interesting one to see dissected).

Sorry to be so dense. Kochman seems to understand it so I'm feeling a little dim and I don't think coffee will cure me.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zephyr wrote:
Thanks for the info. But now I'm full of questions. Laughing For example, what are the break-points for "First Set Length"? Does a show with one oddity get .25, but two oddities get .5? What happens with three oddities? What is a "Jerry Berry" or a "Dark Bob"? What are the deduction scenarios? Can you use a specific show to provide an example of top-to-bottom scoring? (9/7/85 would be an interesting one to see dissected).

Sorry to be so dense. Kochman seems to understand it so I'm feeling a little dim and I don't think coffee will cure me.

First, coffee cures everything.
Second, I only know because Swami and I have had extensive talks about it, and I've called some of his system into question. He's changed a couple of things since the initial inception if I came with a legit point, and/or fully explained this stuff to me in great detail where I stopped questioning.
Third, I have forgotten most of the detail.

I remember 1st set, 6 songs equals zero points, 7 songs was the next break point, and 8 or up being the 3rd category.

Jerry Berry/Dark Bob was a very controversial category to me, as I feel it is int he realm of subjectivity. There are certain songs that Swami would like to hear from either guy. I can't remember which, exactly. I don't oppose the concept, I just say, categorize it under subjective scoring. Subjectively speaking, I liked most of the subjective songs he does.

Subjectivity cannot be avoided, unless we just want to rate paper tigers haha.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
Thanks for the info. But now I'm full of questions. Laughing For example, what are the break-points for "First Set Length"? Does a show with one oddity get .25, but two oddities get .5? What happens with three oddities? What is a "Jerry Berry" or a "Dark Bob"? What are the deduction scenarios? Can you use a specific show to provide an example of top-to-bottom scoring? (9/7/85 would be an interesting one to see dissected).

Sorry to be so dense. Kochman seems to understand it so I'm feeling a little dim and I don't think coffee will cure me.

First, coffee cures everything.
Second, I only know because Swami and I have had extensive talks about it, and I've called some of his system into question. He's changed a couple of things since the initial inception if I came with a legit point, and/or fully explained this stuff to me in great detail where I stopped questioning.
Third, I have forgotten most of the detail.

I remember 1st set, 6 songs equals zero points, 7 songs was the next break point, and 8 or up being the 3rd category.

Jerry Berry/Dark Bob was a very controversial category to me, as I feel it is int he realm of subjectivity. There are certain songs that Swami would like to hear from either guy. I can't remember which, exactly. I don't oppose the concept, I just say, categorize it under subjective scoring. Subjectively speaking, I liked most of the subjective songs he does.

Subjectivity cannot be avoided, unless we just want to rate paper tigers haha.

I'm totally on board with subjectivity. I just want to understand the parts of the process that Swami felt were explainable.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They make sense, when you hear them, for sure. He definitely thought this out thoroughly and tweaked them as needed as he developed the project.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zephyr wrote:
swamiGD80s wrote:
In the interest of disclosure, the components of the rating system are as follows:

First Set Length: 0 / 0.5 / 1.0
Energy/Cohesiveness: 0 / 0.5 / 1.0 (subjective component)
Second Set full stoppages: 0 / 0.25 / 0.5
Oddity or Thematic Jam: 0 / 0.5
Power Slot: 0 / 0.5
Ballad Slot: 0 / 0.5
Jerry Berry: 0 / 0.5
Dark Bob: 0 / 0.5

First Set Deductions: 0.25 each (3 possible scenarios)
Second Set Deductions: 0.25 each (2 possible scenarios)

Highest Score possible 5.0 and then down by increments of 0.25. All Points of Light received 4.25 or higher ratings. Tiebreakers factored heavily into the ranking of the list.

Thanks for the info. But now I'm full of questions. Laughing For example, what are the break-points for "First Set Length"? Does a show with one oddity get .25, but two oddities get .5? What happens with three oddities? What is a "Jerry Berry" or a "Dark Bob"? What are the deduction scenarios? Can you use a specific show to provide an example of top-to-bottom scoring? (9/7/85 would be an interesting one to see dissected).

Sorry to be so dense. Kochman seems to understand it so I'm feeling a little dim and I don't think coffee will cure me.


First Set Length:
8 or more songs = 1.0
7 songs = 0.5
6 or fewer songs = 0.0

First Set Deductions:
"Over-bluesed" - 2 out of the following 3 songs played (in set 1): Minglewood, Rooster, C.C. Rider

"Over-exuberant Jerry" - 2 out of the following 3 songs played (in set 1): TLEO, Tennessee Jed, Ramble On Rose

"Adverse LL combo" - Jed preceding LL Rain OR LL Rain followed by Don't Ease Me In.

Energy/Cohesiveness:
High = 1.0, characterized by EITHER high energy AND cohesiveness OR an overwhelming abundance of either energy or cohesiveness. Performance generally exhibits multiple instances of "x factor," and has a baseline level of consistency.

Medium = 0.5, characterized by EITHER above average levels of one but not the other (energy, cohesiveness) OR lack of multiple instances of "x factor" despite adequate (medium) levels of energy and cohesiveness.

Low = 0.0, characterized by EITHER inadequate energy or cohesiveness, OR both, and a difficulty reaching peaks within the music. These were the nights that were more like work than play. Generally these shows contain highlights but are not enjoyable the whole way through.

Second Set Stoppages:
0-1 full stops = 0.5
2 full stops = 0.25
3+ full stops = 0.0

Note: Applied conservatively - a full 3 seconds should elapse, clearly exceeding a musical pause, for a stoppage to be established.

Oddity or Thematic Jam:
1 of the 2 or Both = 0.5 (additional instances irrelevant)
Neither = 0.0

Special notes re O/T metric:
- Oddity can consist of one of the following:
1. A power-slot eligible song played as Second Set opener, or in the post-Space lineup.
2. Jack Straw played in any other position besides the first or last Bob song of the First Set.
3. Multiple Jerry ballads post-Space.
4. A song breakout after a significant absence from the lineup (greater than 1 year, applied conservatively).
5. An extremely rare song (less than 5 performances).
6. A highly unusual song combination (applied conservatively - only if can be reasonably considered one of the major highlights of a performance).
7. More than one song played as Encore.
8. Greater than 6 songs in Second Set pre-Drumz.
9. Greater than 5 songs in Second Set post-Space, not including Encore.

- Thematic can consist of: any extended musical passage outside the confines of a song structure or a transition between songs (liberally applied).

Power Slot:
Eligible Song/Jam = 0.5
Ineligible selection = 0.0

Eligible List: Eyes, Terrapin, Playin, Playin Jam/Reprise, Let It Grow, Other One, Uncle John's, Spanish Jam, Circumstancial Jam, Orbital Jam OR Dark Star, Gone Jam, Truckin extended jam, and 6th Song automatic (6 or more songs before Drumz).

Ballad Slot:
Ballad performed anytime after Space not including Encore = 0.5
No ballad performed after Space not including Encore = 0.0

Note: "Ballad" is defined as a song which slows the musical tempo relative to surrounding songs, is sung by Jerry, and contains multiple verses which generally tell a story. Liberal application in the rating process with these guidelines. Mr. Fantasy and Foolish were denied ballad-eligibility.

Jerry Berry:
Presence of at least one Berry song = 0.5 (additional irrelevant)
Lack of a Berry in setlist = 0.0

The Berries: Dancin-Franklins, Help/Slip/Franklin, UJB (pre 10/31/1980 only), Deal (post 10/31/1980 only), China/Rider, Scarlet/Fire, Shakedown, Iko Iko, and Foolish.

Note: Berries containing song combinations MUST contain all songs in the combination, and are allowed a maximum of one additional song in the middle to maintaining berry status (i.e. Scarlet-TOUCH-Fire).

Dark Bob:
Presence of a Dark Bob song = 0.5 (additional irrelevant)
Lack of Dark Bob in setlist = 0.0

The Dark Bobbers: Sailor/Saint, Estimated, Playin, Stranger, Let It Grow, and Victim.

Second Set Deductions:

Good Time Blues/Never Trust a Woman: Any 2nd Set performance of this song.

Fewer than 7 Songs not including Encore or Drums & Space: Jams that can be labeled (i.e. Spanish Jam, Playin Jam) do count as a song. Deduction applied conservatively.


Notes regarding crossover songs:

- Dark Bob exception: Dark Bob songs that are also power-slot eligible (Playin & Let It Grow) ARE allowed to satisfy both metrics, due to the inherent difficulty in achieving multiple Dark Bob songs based on standard setlist structure.
- Marathon Jam exception: Extended jams in the power slot emanating from a non-power-slot-eligible song which exceed 20 minutes from the beginning of said song ARE allowed to fulfill both the Power Slot and Oddity/Thematic metrics if necessary.
- Jerry Power Slot power: A Jerry power-slot eligible song (Eyes, Terrapin, & Uncle John's) is allowed to be followed by any bonus song afterwards and still fulfill the Power Slot metric IF it is at least the 3rd song played in the 2nd Set; however if more than one song follows the Jerry power song, then it is no longer considered to be part of the Power Slot, and can no longer fulfill the metric.
- General Principle: Aside from established exceptions, a song or jam can only fulfill one metric. Songs and jams shall be distributed within a performance so as to maximize a show's possible rating without violating this principle.
- Power Slot "Jams": In accordance with the General Principle, if the Power Slot is satisfied by one of the "jam options" (Gone Jam, Truckin extended, Orbital/Dark Star/Space, Circumstancial, Playin Jam/Reprise, Spanish), then the Oddity/Thematic metric CANNOT also be satisfied by this jam segment (unless exceeding 20 minutes - see exception).
- Power Slot satisfied with extended "bonus" jam: In instances where a Power Slot eligible song (not jam) is played, followed by an extended jam which departs from the theme of the song completely, then the Oddity/Thematic metric may also be satisfied.

I HOPE THIS HELPS Cool Idea

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Example 9/7/1985 Reply with quote

Ok 9/7/1985 was requested as an example:

First Set: 1.0 (interesting here as I allowed Frozen Logger to be considered a song - after giving it some thought..otherwise would have been only 7 songs with a 0.5)

Energy/Cohesiveness: Medium = 0.5 - One of the Mediums that made the list (18 did in total).

2nd Set Stoppages: 1 = 0.5

Oddity (Y), Thematic (N) = 0.5 Double-Encore

Power Slot: Uncle John's = 0.5
Ballad Slot: Comes A Time = 0.5
Jerry Berry: Shakedown = 0.5
Dark Bob: Playin = 0.5

Sumtotal: 4.5 Swami Stars.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome. Now I've got something to chew on. Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more questions later. Very Happy

In the meantime, have you considered partnering with an app developer? It feels like a fantastic game could be worked up from these rules. You could be rich by this time next year.

The reason I asked you to parse out the score for 9/7/85 is that the show has a lot of clams mixed in with the peak bits. It's a freakin' clambake, in fact. Is that aspect of the show fully encompassed by the .5-point ding it took in the "Energy/Cohesiveness" category?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zephyr wrote:
Awesome. Now I've got something to chew on. Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more questions later. Very Happy

In the meantime, have you considered partnering with an app developer? It feels like a fantastic game could be worked up from these rules. You could be rich by this time next year.

The reason I asked you to parse out the score for 9/7/85 is that the show has a lot of clams mixed in with the peak bits. It's a freakin' clambake, in fact. Is that aspect of the show fully encompassed by the .5-point ding it took in the "Energy/Cohesiveness" category?


To answer your question re 9/7/1985, Yes. I think it's a solid "Medium" in that category. If you know anyone or have any business ideas, please PM me the details. With the amount of time I devote to GD, it would be great to make some dough from it Laughing

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, perhaps I should come up with a [CENSORED] rating schematic, in that money making vein.

I have long touted 9/7/85, and yes, there are some less than amazing moments, but it does hit those amazing areas too. Good call on the medium rating there.

My personal opinion, on a 5 point scale, a 0.5 metric is 10% of the possible score, and it seems some things are weighed unfairly heavily.

In particular, and we did discuss this one Swami, the oddity/thematic. It's either 0%, or 10%, with no middle ground, or no consideration of a show that goes back into themes or has several break outs, etc.
So a 2 minute MLB jam has the same rating impact as a show with 2 break outs, a spanish jam, and a dark star jam (or whatever, you get my point).

It also means, without a theme/oddity, chances of any show getting in the top 100 are slim, as the lowest show was a 4.25. That means one more "flaw" and they are done...

I'm not asking you to change that, I just thought that aspect was a bit of a skewer. Granted, we all want the themes/oddities (right?), it personally adds a lot to 1985, in my book, etc.

Perhaps when you revisit this, in some years, as you hinted at, this can be re-considered.

Oh, that, and a Bobby whistle out of space to introduce Truckin' should be -2 hahaha.

I'll shut up now.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS, only meant as constructive criticism.
I'm an absolute fan of this project and believe that every show on the list will be awesome. I might swap out a couple, but for the plethera of new gems I'm finding, this is a win-win!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate constructive criticism and by no means do I claim perfection - although I am proud of this for a first go-around.

I notice that I was rather generous in giving out Mediums, and probably some should have been relegated to Low. For that reason, I am already pondering increasing the value of the Energy/Cohesiveness to 1.5 max, with Med-Low (0.5) and Med-High (1.0) options in place of the current Medium. Potentially the Berry and Dark Bob could each be reduced to 0.25 in the process.

Right now, however, I am just enjoying releasing the list. I have a lot of good data in my master spreadsheet, so in 2014 or 2015 I can revisit the Points of Light for a version 2, incorporating additional nominees and potential tweaking to the rating system and tiebreakers.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A wonderful side benefit for this endeavor is that it's making me do a spring cleaning, of sorts. So far I've discovered 17 worthwhile upgrades of shows that were on my hard drive. Out with the old, in with the new. Very Happy And they're not just any shows.... they are the cream of the crop. And getting better, if such a thing is possible - considering the strengths of many of the shows in the bottom 50. I'm stoked to find out what the next 5 are going to be. This event is like a slo-mo ever-deepening immersion in the best of the best. A month-long Grateful Dead on-line DJ party.

Thanks again, Swami.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zephyr wrote:
A wonderful side benefit for this endeavor is that it's making me do a spring cleaning, of sorts. So far I've discovered 17 worthwhile upgrades of shows that were on my hard drive. Out with the old, in with the new. Very Happy And they're not just any shows.... they are the cream of the crop. And getting better, if such a thing is possible - considering the strengths of many of the shows in the bottom 50. I'm stoked to find out what the next 5 are going to be. This event is like a slo-mo ever-deepening immersion in the best of the best. A month-long Grateful Dead on-line DJ party.

Thanks again, Swami.


Yea we are now into the TOP 50, and I have "thrown down the gauntlet" by including Hampton's Dark Star show. One that many out there would have at the top of their Brent Era lists.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is properly placed
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone ready for American Top 40? Question Idea Cool Henceforth, all Top 40 Points of Light may be referred to as Kasems.


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[/i][/b]

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He has a heart shaped pool...
That should be the name of a song...

Heart-Shaped Pool
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: It all comes down to this... Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Points of Light stats question...
Of all the shows, you gave us how many where in which state, region, etc.

Can you also give us how many shows total from this period? So we can extrapolate a "likelihood of getting a hot show" ratio?


Also, a couple of observations I've come to through the course of this...
1) You've made me much more of an Estimated fan with these shows. It's a complex song, and if it is "on", it's pretty amazing.
2) We have a large divergence in what we look for in a S>F... both 10/4/81 and 10/8/81 feature what I would consider poor S>Fs for any year, especially early 80s... but you love them both...
I need it to be loud and in charge, where you seem to have a liking of slow, somewhat low key but what I would call "pretty" sounding transitions/FOTMs... my ideal being more like 10/21/83s, which you have expressed doesn't do it for you.
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