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Show me a great Pigpen keyboard moment

 
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:03 am    Post subject: Show me a great Pigpen keyboard moment Reply with quote

We can all agree that Pigpen played the keyboards for the Gateful Dead, right?
So, show me..
SHOW ME A GREAT PIG KEYBOARD MOMENT
Zephyr, as someone who recently rated him beyond Brent Mydland, please, please, show me a moment of great Pigpen keyboard playing?

EDIT: Anyhow, I don't actually want to compare his playing to Brent.

I initially started this thread thinking it would be hard to find, but now I am actually interested in the recommendations.


Last edited by Kochman on Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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maximinus



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer Pigpen to Brent. There, said it. However,

BRENT IS A **MUCH** BETTER KEYBOARD PLAYER

I think my preference of Pigpen is down to a whole bunch of other things:

* He was a much better showman
* I prefer his songs
* I prefer GD Pigpen era over that of GD Brent era
* He's got much more soul

However, I also like Brent. But given the choice of listening to a random Pigpen tune or a random Brent tune I'd pick the former.

Actually, there is *ONE* massive stand-out Pig keyboard moment; when he decided to stop playing Dark Star Very Happy

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Kochman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fine and dandy, but this thread is not asking why you like Pigpen more than others, but it is asking for great Pigpen moments on the boards... organ or otherwise... surely they exist...

For example, I like his work, in general, on Morning Dew...


Last edited by Kochman on Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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aikowolf



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
That's fine and dandy, but this thread is not asking why you like Pigpen more than others, but it is clearly asking for great Pigpen moments on the boards... organ or otherwise... surely they exist...

For example, I like his work, in general, on Morning Dew...


shitloads of great moments, particularly in Viola Lee Blues, I'll dig a fantastic one out...
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the spirit! There are some songs that he certainly shined on. My point here isn't to bring Brent into the equation, but to give Pigpen some expanded recognition.
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jessewood34



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i actually like his keyboards on tenesee jed. It gives the song a very rustic feel. Rockin the rhein version is prty dang good in my mind.
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Duderino



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pig added some nice B-3 textures during E72, but yeah, not the greatest player. I dont think he really gave a [CENSORED] beyond playing basic blues. I will say he is a better ORGAN player than Keith. Ever listened to the few show (74, 77) where he played the synth or electric organ? (not the warbly Fender Rhodes - that was cool).
Anyhow, he is horrible when not playing the piano!

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jessewood34



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha yeah sometimes i wonder what that tinny annoying buzzing noise is in the background. until i realized it was keiths synth. it seems to me that pigpens best keyboard playing was on their debut album in my opinion at least.
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nickJ



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

8/18/70 acoustic Truckin (the first one?) -- there's some tasty and prominent piano in the end jam. Nothing fancy, but it's definitely a "wow, Pigpen's not half bad" moment.

Is Pig playing piano in To Lay Me Down on 9/20/70, or is that Jerry? I've never been clear about that.
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light into ashes



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe it's Jerry who's supposed to be playing piano in the 9-20-70 To Lay Me Down.....not sure if Pigpen would've had the patience!

Pigpen played piano on all the acoustic Truckin's, though, so 9/18 and 9/20 are better quality if folks want to check that out. Definitely gives that song a more rustic feeling.
It's not mentioned much, but those American Beauty acoustic sets gave Pigpen a new chance to shine - in the 8/19/70 show for example, he plays piano in five songs....
I was just listening to 6-13-70 and was struck by his piano in New Speedway, it fit in the jam quite well.
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is definitely broadening my Pigpen knowledge!
Once I have completed the transfer of the complete GD catalogue to my new portable hard drive, I can start listening while at work without streaming, and I should get to hear some of this stuff.
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bzfgt



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like some of the licks Pigpen plays toward the end of the 11 on 2 From the Vault, when he's trading fours with Jerry.
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tizi



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try with DP 16 - 11/08/1969

I get back to this show expecially for the 2 set.

Dark Star / Other One / dark star / UJB / Dark Star / St. Stephen / The Eleven

For a keyboard player is the vibe the overall felling that it creates which is important and not a single jam!
I just love Pigpen's tuneseven when he is not making greate solos (Lovelight expecially)!

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jessewood34



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TC plays keys on that show tizi. i only think pigpen play keyboards on viola lee blues in 69 but correct me if im wrong.
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tizi



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jessewood34 wrote:
TC plays keys on that show tizi. i only think pigpen play keyboards on viola lee blues in 69 but correct me if im wrong.


oh well .... you might be right Laughing

But that show is the one I listen often and I love that specific sound ... not Pigpen then .... but the other fellow TC (that's the one everyone is forgetting about ...).

Well my point is that Pigpen had such a strange, rough, specific voice that gave to the R& B tunes a unique flavour. He was also very funny and this is why so many people likes him ... just think how many people must have got laid with Lovelight! That's my guess! We all know that each version of Lovelight is pretty much drums and Pigpen "talking" ... but i just love to put it loud in the car during summertime .... when I am alone obviously.


... and Iove the beginning of the '68 Dark Star with prominent organ just on the beginning (du - du -dudu - du - du) that got lost somewhere in '69, when the Dark Stars have become more drammatic.
OK I APPEAL TO THE MORE INFORMED PEOPLE HERE TO GIVE A STRONG RESPONSE AND TO DEFEND PIGPEN FROM KOCH'S ATTACK!!! Battle

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bzfgt



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that would be a different thread...here, he's just asking for good keyboard moments.

I'm not sure exactly where Koch stands, but I'm not the biggest Pigpen fan myself...but I suppose that would be that other thread.
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tizi



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Show me a great Pigpen keyboard moment Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
We can all agree that Pigpen played the keyboards for the Gateful Dead, right?
So, show me..
SHOW ME A GREAT PIG KEYBOARD MOMENT
Zephyr, as someone who recently rated him beyond Brent Mydland, please, please, show me a moment of great Pigpen keyboard playing?

EDIT: Anyhow, I don't actually want to compare his playing to Brent.

I initially started this thread thinking it would be hard to find, but now I am actually interested in the recommendations.


OK ... but I do see a little challange here .... don't you ...? Rules

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jessewood34



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i love pigpen the front man. but hate pigpen the keyboard player. As a keyboard player myself i can definately without question say hes one of the crappier board players ive ever heard. No originality cant play a good keyboard line to save his life and no improvisation skills at all. Now on a lighter less harsher side i like pigpens contributions to viola lee blues Laughing
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artfultouch



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:14 pm    Post subject: Pigpen in Europe Reply with quote

My two cents : Pigpen's strength on the organ was his impeccable timing, he really played in the pocket, and that big organ sound added a lot to the American rock and roll songs the Dead played. Sadly, he was mixed very low on tour so it's tough to hear on the official releases and soundboards. Personally, I love the B4 organ sound, so I really miss it in their songs when Pigpen left. Hearing Brent play the fat organ when he first joined on was a real treat, and he then switched to the synthetic hybrid keyboard sounds which I really dislike to this day, no matter who plays them.

Pigpen never really played "solos" but added some little runs/accents on Tennessee Jed and Chinatown Shuffle and Ramble On Rose, to name a couple songs. At the moment (Europe 72 tour) the texture of organ was all that was really needed, since Keith was playing straight up piano with a lot of passion and focus. I think Pigpen would have continued to grow into a real keyboard player's role, learning the theory and his chops better had he lived to tell the tale.

Anyway, I believe adding the color and sustain of B4 organ, while being really locked into Jerry and Billy's playing, was enough to warrant a thumbs up from all of us who love the Grateful Dead.

Peace,
Artful
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Grateful_nirvanA



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For my two cents worth, it's hard to find much to say about Pig's keyboard playing after TC joined the band. The fun '66 stuff (like Viola Lee on 7/16) is not really all that technically difficult, but it has an endearing quality that I like. Then you get into '71, after TC is gone but before Keith joined, and you primarily find Pig playing harp, tambourine and maracas. There were a lot of songs that were played where, if Pig was even on stage, you wouldn't know it from the tapes. If I were going to go and suggest a show or two to listen to Pig play the keys, I'd pick 8/4/67 and 9/3/67. While these aren't the greatest of tapes sound-wise, they do pick up some distinct Pig organ work.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's cool that you guys posted some thoughts on this because I have been thinking about this one since I listened to 4 or 5 Europe 72 shows (I focused more on the second sets) in the last couple of weeks and, as Duderino says up there, he has some nice Hammond B 3 organ highlights, especially in the meaty jam vehicles, he complements the band very well when playing and there are some nice moments, it adds to the greatness of some of the jams for sure.
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: Pigpen in Europe Reply with quote

artfultouch wrote:
My two cents : Pigpen's strength on the organ was his impeccable timing, he really played in the pocket, and that big organ sound added a lot to the American rock and roll songs the Dead played. Sadly, he was mixed very low on tour so it's tough to hear on the official releases and soundboards. Personally, I love the B4 organ sound, so I really miss it in their songs when Pigpen left. Hearing Brent play the fat organ when he first joined on was a real treat, and he then switched to the synthetic hybrid keyboard sounds which I really dislike to this day, no matter who plays them.

Pigpen never really played "solos" but added some little runs/accents on Tennessee Jed and Chinatown Shuffle and Ramble On Rose, to name a couple songs. At the moment (Europe 72 tour) the texture of organ was all that was really needed, since Keith was playing straight up piano with a lot of passion and focus. I think Pigpen would have continued to grow into a real keyboard player's role, learning the theory and his chops better had he lived to tell the tale.

Anyway, I believe adding the color and sustain of B4 organ, while being really locked into Jerry and Billy's playing, was enough to warrant a thumbs up from all of us who love the Grateful Dead.

Peace,
Artful

Hey artful! Welcome aboard, and thanks for your well thought out and expressed opinion!
We hope you like it here.
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Grateful_nirvanA



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay Koch, I've got one you should try out for some tasty Pig on organ. Damn, that sounds like hagus! Anyway, check out the Jam on 3/25/66. Basically, this is a jam featuring Pig on the organ and Jerry on guitar with the others sprinkled into the mix. Caveat: just listen to the jam....his organ sounds the same on the tracks that follow, but the more open jam lets him have his say without completely overstaying his welcome. Pig's organ playing here reminds me of Incense and Peppermints (The Strawberry Alarm clock) and House of the Rising Sun (The Animals). This one makes me dance every time, so much so, it was on the mix tape I made for my wedding! Enjoy.
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Won't have time to hit it tonight, but when I come back, remind me...
I am still searching for a moment where Pigpen's playing blows me away, is this it?
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Grateful_nirvanA



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Won't have time to hit it tonight, but when I come back, remind me...
I am still searching for a moment where Pigpen's playing blows me away, is this it?


Blow you away, no. Make you smile while dominating the sound, yes. It's the cheesy sounding organ of course, but he's up front, loud and strong and trading licks with Jerry most of the way.
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nickJ



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two more for the "understated yet really cool little fills/accompaniment" file:

6/22/69: the first(?) Casey Jones. Pigpen's B3 has this perky little sound that reminds me of Garth Hudson, for some reason.

6/4/70 Baby Blue. Pig's organ is understated, but sounds great on this early version.
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GracefulDuck



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I think Pig played some nice organ stuff that blended in with Keith's playing on the Europe '72 tour. It's not out front, which is nice.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple I've heard recently are:
11/11/1967 New Potato Caboose
1/22/1968 Alligator, Spanish Jam
Also got to love the early album stuff, Pigpen is all over that!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GracefulDuck wrote:
Actually, I think Pig played some nice organ stuff that blended in with Keith's playing on the Europe '72 tour. It's not out front, which is nice.

OK, so, this is kind of what I am getting at. He's best when he's not the "one"... and since he never really was the "one", he's mediocre, at best...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boise99 wrote:
A couple I've heard recently are:
11/11/1967 New Potato Caboose
1/22/1968 Alligator, Spanish Jam
Also got to love the early album stuff, Pigpen is all over that!


Kochman wrote:
GracefulDuck wrote:
Actually, I think Pig played some nice organ stuff that blended in with Keith's playing on the Europe '72 tour. It's not out front, which is nice.

OK, so, this is kind of what I am getting at. He's best when he's not the "one"... and since he never really was the "one", he's mediocre, at best...


I keep revisiting this question as I seem to be one of the bigger "Primal Dead" fans that is active here and I think I have an era for you to really look at Koch. boise99 is pretty close with the assessment in the late '67 and early '68 era. Specifically, January and February of '68 show off some of Pig's best organ work. The primitive versions of Dark Star/China Cat and the blow out versions of The Other One suite in these two months are, IMO, where you can really hear what he's up to, and it's a good thing!
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grateful_nirvanA wrote:
boise99 wrote:
A couple I've heard recently are:
11/11/1967 New Potato Caboose
1/22/1968 Alligator, Spanish Jam
Also got to love the early album stuff, Pigpen is all over that!


Kochman wrote:
GracefulDuck wrote:
Actually, I think Pig played some nice organ stuff that blended in with Keith's playing on the Europe '72 tour. It's not out front, which is nice.

OK, so, this is kind of what I am getting at. He's best when he's not the "one"... and since he never really was the "one", he's mediocre, at best...


I keep revisiting this question as I seem to be one of the bigger "Primal Dead" fans that is active here and I think I have an era for you to really look at Koch. boise99 is pretty close with the assessment in the late '67 and early '68 era. Specifically, January and February of '68 show off some of Pig's best organ work. The primitive versions of Dark Star/China Cat and the blow out versions of The Other One suite in these two months are, IMO, where you can really hear what he's up to, and it's a good thing!

I'm familiar with Feb 68, though it has been a while, and I can neither confirm nor deny at this juncture. I will have to review... 2/14/68 was one I seem to recall liking a lot.
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artfultouch11



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:04 am    Post subject: Pigpen on The Other One '72 Reply with quote

Probably the best examples of Pigpen cutting loose is during The Other One throughout the Europe 72 tour (like Bickershaw) especially when they come back in after long jams and Bobby sings the "Spanish Lady" and "Lily fields" parts ... Pigpen does fast runs that any organ player would be happy with.

It is a fair musical critique to ask for an example of Pigpen displaying "Chops" on the keyboard. To some people, "Chops" means playing lots of fast notes because they've studied theory in depth, and to others it means supporting a song with whatever tone and touch serves it best, and to some people it means both.

To my mind, the primary Dead keyboard players fall into those categories this way:

Pigpen was developing some chops through practice but was cut short of the potential he was finally reaching in early 72. don't sleep on how much he was growing musically once he slowed down the partying and started practicing regularly. Songs like Brown Eyed Women and Ramble On Rose, on which he plays perfectly lovely organ, are not simple 1-4-5 Blues which was his original comfort zone. I firmly believe that he would have supplied great and lush hammond organ parts to much more of the catalog they were writing at the time of his death.

Keith had perfect pitch in his ears and a fairly complete musical theory background, as well as a love of original American rock and roll. He wrote fantastic and totally complimentary piano parts for dozens of their most enduring songs during 71-73. And then some combination of drug abuse and personal insecurity wrecked his ability to play anything beyond simple chords... He had the technical chops, but refused to support the songs in whatever way was best suited (such as using thick organ sounds to provide ambience and sustained chords in addition to staccato piano plunking).

Brent surely must have seemed like a gift from the heavens when he joined up. Technical chops, deep appreciation and knowledge of the history in American music, singing amazing high harmonies, played piano, fender rhodes, and hammond style organ to support any genre they wanted !!! And then some combination of heavy drug use shattered his voice and, more importantly to my ears, his fascination with synthesizers wrecked his keyboard tone. Synths have their place in the world, for sure, and techno/electronica music can be lots of fun. But the American Blues Roots Rock genre is simply not a good fit for space flutes and fairy bells :-) That doesn't diminish the fondness we all feel for Brent's era and his ability to throw down a big solo or push the band harder on a slow night. I simply, and selfishly, wish he had stayed with more analog sounding equipment.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Pigpen on The Other One '72 Reply with quote

artfultouch11 wrote:
Probably the best examples of Pigpen cutting loose is during The Other One throughout the Europe 72 tour (like Bickershaw) especially when they come back in after long jams and Bobby sings the "Spanish Lady" and "Lily fields" parts ... Pigpen does fast runs that any organ player would be happy with.

It is a fair musical critique to ask for an example of Pigpen displaying "Chops" on the keyboard. To some people, "Chops" means playing lots of fast notes because they've studied theory in depth, and to others it means supporting a song with whatever tone and touch serves it best, and to some people it means both.

To my mind, the primary Dead keyboard players fall into those categories this way:

Pigpen was developing some chops through practice but was cut short of the potential he was finally reaching in early 72. don't sleep on how much he was growing musically once he slowed down the partying and started practicing regularly. Songs like Brown Eyed Women and Ramble On Rose, on which he plays perfectly lovely organ, are not simple 1-4-5 Blues which was his original comfort zone. I firmly believe that he would have supplied great and lush hammond organ parts to much more of the catalog they were writing at the time of his death.

Keith had perfect pitch in his ears and a fairly complete musical theory background, as well as a love of original American rock and roll. He wrote fantastic and totally complimentary piano parts for dozens of their most enduring songs during 71-73. And then some combination of drug abuse and personal insecurity wrecked his ability to play anything beyond simple chords... He had the technical chops, but refused to support the songs in whatever way was best suited (such as using thick organ sounds to provide ambience and sustained chords in addition to staccato piano plunking).

Brent surely must have seemed like a gift from the heavens when he joined up. Technical chops, deep appreciation and knowledge of the history in American music, singing amazing high harmonies, played piano, fender rhodes, and hammond style organ to support any genre they wanted !!! And then some combination of heavy drug use shattered his voice and, more importantly to my ears, his fascination with synthesizers wrecked his keyboard tone. Synths have their place in the world, for sure, and techno/electronica music can be lots of fun. But the American Blues Roots Rock genre is simply not a good fit for space flutes and fairy bells :-) That doesn't diminish the fondness we all feel for Brent's era and his ability to throw down a big solo or push the band harder on a slow night. I simply, and selfishly, wish he had stayed with more analog sounding equipment.



Very nice post - true to your nickname, an artful touch to this thread - and a thoughtful one. Welcome. But what about Vince? Bruce?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, well thought out post.
I will disagree that Brent's sound wasn't fit for "American Blues Rock", which is really what all rock is, basically.
I don't limit the GD to that... more of a Rock/Blues/Jazz fusion.

Also, some of his best work was in clearly blues songs, such as New Minglewood.

Anyhow, this is about Pen...


Pigpen being better by 72. Sure, but still, nothing I'd really write home about. Keith was trouncing Pig's work in Europe... and, for my money, surviving past 30 is an important thing.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re : SwamiGD
Although I did get to see two shows at MSG '90 with Vince and Bruce, i have not listened to much from '90-95. From the MSG shows, it was obvious that Jerry and Bruce had a fantastic musical rapport and I wish he had stayed on. That clean and fast piano sound harkened back to the 72 tours with Keith. Vince was buried in the mix at MSG, so I had little experience with him then. From a couple bootlegs I have heard, he clearly knows his scales and theory as a musician. But his phrasing and choice of melodies seemed better suited for a different style of band, honestly. Like a quirky pop rock band like The Cars, or Talking Heads, just not really feeling it for Roots Rock that the Dead's songs are often based on. Hearing Vince on bootlegs did make me greatly appreciate Brent's deep roots in blues, country, R&B, etc.

Re : Kochman
There's plenty of rock styles that are not American Blues based in their rhythms and chord progressions. Although labels are kind of limiting, here are some styles that have very little in common with the Dead's roots : New Wave, Prog Rock, and Punk Rock.

I said Brent was a monster player in the American Roots genre, but that for my taste his synthesized keyboards sounds don't work very well for blues/country/soul-based music. Along with a splash of acid improv open jam (a la Dark Star), those three genres are the basis of nearly every Grateful Dead song they ever played.

And yes, this thread is about Pigpen. So, it's fine that you don't dig his keyboard playing. Certainly it is rudimentary at times, and maybe you dislike the Hammond B4 sound he had in 72. That's cool to have personal tastes and preferences . I don't think it's all that cool that start using phrases like "Trounced" when talking about musicians, unless you're the one on stage and putting your neck on the line. Performing musicians are a naturally competitive breed, and the greatest performers are *highly* competitive people. And believe me, there are millions of musicians that hear the Grateful Dead and believe that they themselves could "Trounce" the members of this wildly popular band in a Cutting Contest on stage. Judging any member of the Dead solely on the basis of their technical chops is a slippery slope, since most of the Dead don't really hold up against the greater population of professional musicians out there. Brent could hold his own at any All-star jam, and when they weren't on the nod from heroin Jerry and Billy could also stand alongside any group of world-class Rock performers. Go ahead and poll working musicians around the country and you will hear some love for the songs written by Jerry and Hunter, and for the feel of the shows and for Jerry's unmistakable tone... but you'll hear even more about not really getting what the big deal is all about, and those dudes can hardly play their instruments, and what lousy singing, and on and on. We fans of the Grateful Dead love them for a wide variety of reasons, but it's not usually about crazy musical chops and vocal proficiency.

So, I love Pigpen's keyboard sound in 72 and think it added a vital piece of sonic flavor to their band as a whole. Kochman doesn't like his playing and thinks it's nothing to write home about. Both views are good for us to have.
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

artfultouch11 wrote:
Re : Kochman
There's plenty of rock styles that are not American Blues based in their rhythms and chord progressions. Although labels are kind of limiting, here are some styles that have very little in common with the Dead's roots : New Wave, Prog Rock, and Punk Rock.

Well, I would argue that New Wave isn't "rock", it's a music style, not a rock style.
Prog Rock... true, you are right, but then again, it wasn't around yet.
Punk... what is punk based on? I don't really even know. More of an early ska basis isn't it?

Quote:
I said Brent was a monster player in the American Roots genre, but that for my taste his synthesized keyboards sounds don't work very well for blues/country/soul-based music. Along with a splash of acid improv open jam (a la Dark Star), those three genres are the basis of nearly every Grateful Dead song they ever played.

That's personal opinion. For my money, he outperformed Keith and Pig on nearly every song (especially soul based)... exceptions are out there.

Quote:
I don't think it's all that cool that start using phrases like "Trounced" when talking about musicians, unless you're the one on stage and putting your neck on the line.

Wut?

Quote:
So, I love Pigpen's keyboard sound in 72 and think it added a vital piece of sonic flavor to their band as a whole. Kochman doesn't like his playing and thinks it's nothing to write home about. Both views are good for us to have.

Right, I am just looking for some substantial reasons that people have for actually have for thinking Pig was a good boardist. You did a pretty good job of presenting your view, but even then, it was basically limiting him to his final performances, when, in my opinion, clearly comparable examples, Keith was monumentally better in the same shows.
We can agree to disagree, but, I think if looked at more objectively, there is more agreement that can be had.
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artfultouch11



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure you'll find New Wave bands in the "Rock" section of a music store. Whatever... arguing whether one style of music fits into a label isn't very productive or conclusive.

"Progressive Rock" is widely held to have started in 1969 with King Crimson's Court Of The Crimson King (closely followed by Yes and Genesis and many more bands) although it was simply called "Rock" at the time, even if it didn't sound much like what came before it to the purists of rock and roll.

Kochman - You won't find me saying that Pigpen is better than Brent or than Keith, or Keith is better than Brent. Dude. Brent is a monster keyboardist and I wish he was still playing. I simply don't care for the synthesizers he came to use a lot. Personal taste, man.

Back to Pigpen, I believe he had some nice moments on the keyboard in 72 and started writing some good original songs. I am sad he died too soon, and didn't keep growing and adding to their sound. It's a little odd that Kochman is deducting points from Pig's legacy because he died of liver cancer. Do you diminish Jimi Hendrix's playing because he died too young? Or Janis Joplin? Or Kurt Cobain? Or Jeff Buckley? And on and on the list goes...

My comment about using words like "Trouncing" to describe a musical event is about judgement, especially for judging dead people who can't defend themselves. Performing musicians and recording artists are, of course, highly opinionated and often competitive people. Music listeners and fans are also opinionated. But the difference is that when guys know from experience how much work and courage it takes to get up on stage and risk being judged and ridiculed and compared to all things past... they usually learn how to be more gracious in their assessment of their fellow musicians. Behind closed doors, professional musicians can be as judgmental and catty as anyone, but they don't usually do that in public forums. And when they do, it's a sign of more serious insecurity issues.

I am not sure why Kochman is consistently focused on who beats who for best Dead keyboardist. I am guessing you are not a performing musician or recording artist. If that's the case, I encourage you to get up there on stage and give it a shot, or learn how to record your own songs. You'll come away with even more appreciation for what all the Grateful Dead members have accomplished over the years. And playing music is WAY more fun than critiquing music.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey buddy, you're now personally attacking me, and it is uncalled for... I don't know if someone pissed in your cheerios this AM or what, but, I will advise you.
Stick to the post, not the poster.

I may or may not be a "performing musician or recording artist", but it is irrelevant. Neither is a pre-requisite for having not only an opinion, but an often shared opinion about music. You don't have to be Roger Waters to know that Britney Spears sucks.

MORE importantly...
You are not my "personal therapist", therefore, keep your evaluations of me based on the internet interaction to ZERO, thank you much for your future consideration.

Either let it lie, or get back on topic.
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artfultouch11



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: Kochman
I apologize. That was my bad for addressing the poster rather than the post.

It's a tough habit to argue points around and around, but that's hardly productive and it was wrong of me to analyze your motives.

Even if I hope to never hear another Brittany Spears song, I'd still rather look for something good to say about her work ethic or whatever might be a silver lining. Lots of musicians turn me off, or leave me feeling nothing at all, but I aspire to give them some credit for getting up there and making their mark. That doesn't prevent me from being a jerk, though, as I was in this post.
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

artfultouch11 wrote:
Even if I hope to never hear another Brittany Spears song, I'd still rather look for something good to say about her work ethic or whatever might be a silver lining.

That's an attitude I'll never understand.
I'll go ahead and call a spade a spade, it's only my opinion in the end, so it doesn't go any further than me anyhow... just not into polishing turds, which to me, a lot of people do.

Here's the downside to the look for the good approach... Now objective people who haven't really heard the Dead here some deadhead, who should be in the know, that Pigpen was great.

Then they listen.

Then they think, ok, this person has no taste in music.

Pigpen would have been fine in a band like the Beach Boys, where technical accomplishment was less important than the overall product. I love the Beach Boys, for the record, but I don't acclaim them to be great musicians. They just put out some groovy stuff that everyone loved, like the Bee Gees.

Ciao!
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henryhill



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a Pigpen era kind of a dead head.

That being said, I think that while you might find many examples of Pigpen doing tasty work on keys, I don't know if there is anything that would blow anybody away. I can say about the same for Pigpen's work as second, or third, percussionist. If I were to rank GD keyboardists on my perception of their "skill level", Pigpen would rank last.

Of course, Pig's skill level on keys has little to do with his importance to the band and their sound, especially 1965 -1969. That's a different discussion.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

henryhill wrote:
I'm a Pigpen era kind of a dead head.

That being said, I think that while you might find many examples of Pigpen doing tasty work on keys, I don't know if there is anything that would blow anybody away. I can say about the same for Pigpen's work as second, or third, percussionist. If I were to rank GD keyboardists on my perception of their "skill level", Pigpen would rank last.

Of course, Pig's skill level on keys has little to do with his importance to the band and their sound, especially 1965 -1969. That's a different discussion.

I agree completely, washboard aside.
His singing was probably the best of the bunch... maybe Brent is there with him.

I love Jerry's voice, obviously, but that's because I'm a blurred deadhead with subjective attachment to it. Same for Bob.
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