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Confirming or Denying the Dear Prudence Jam

 
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:09 pm    Post subject: Confirming or Denying the Dear Prudence Jam Reply with quote

So, it was pointed out that a commonly listed "Dear Prudence Jam" from 6/8/92 is not really one. I remember hearing this show, and I don't remember thinking... "man, there is Dear Prudence"... so, I tend to believe he is correct, and having just re-listened to it I can say that it is clearly an MLBJ at 6/8/92. In fact, the two are very closely related, so it was a very good call for him to notice that...
I have been searching for other such instances... as I know I have heard one from the 80s at a minimum...

I have found the following in my initial searches (per Archive search of "Dear Prudence Grateful Dead"), and anyone who can confirm or deny, chime in:
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Set 2: China Cat Sunflower -> I Know You Rider; Samson And Delilah; Ship Of Fools: Saint Of Circumstance -> Dear Prudence Jam -> Drums -> Space -> The Last Time -> Stella Blue -> Turn On Your Lovelight
BUT... the other source says it is an MLB Jam (note, the one S&R mentioned before was also a Miller, and other sources said MLB Jam also)

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Koch says: This is the biggerst example of a Dear Prudence Jam I have found
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Then... right here... the one Duderino mentioned as a possibility:

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Someone listed it as a "Strawberry Fields Tease", though it is 30 seconds, it is not Strawberry Fields... I hear Dear Prudence... Who's with me?
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Some guy claims to hear a bit of Dear Prudence at the end of the LLRain...
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I could swear there was another one, pre-drums going into Drums... but I have not been able to find it.
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dogstarz
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MLB jam has gotten mislabeled as Dear Prudence on a show I reviewed for the Dark Star project. It is weird how those 2 jams could be very similar though. I will get back to you on the date.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dogstarz wrote:
MLB jam has gotten mislabeled as Dear Prudence on a show I reviewed for the Dark Star project. It is weird how those 2 jams could be very similar though. I will get back to you on the date.


I think its the 6/8/92, which was what inspired this thread...
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Duderino



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Per Deadbase
03-13-82 Centennial Coliseum, Reno, Nv. (Sat)
1: Alabama> Greatest, FOTD> C. C. Rider, B. E. Women> Cassidy, Roses, Minglewood> China Cat> I Know You Rider
2: Stranger> Franklin's, Estimated> Eyes> Drumz> Other One> Dear Prudence Jam> Black Peter> Around> Good Lovin E: Don't Ease
only "Dear Prudence Jam"

Just listened - sounds like either the intro to Dear Prudence or Strawberry Fields - only goes on for about 30 seconds.

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snow_and_rain
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duderino wrote:
Per Deadbase
03-13-82 Centennial Coliseum, Reno, Nv. (Sat)
1: Alabama> Greatest, FOTD> C. C. Rider, B. E. Women> Cassidy, Roses, Minglewood> China Cat> I Know You Rider
2: Stranger> Franklin's, Estimated> Eyes> Drumz> Other One> Dear Prudence Jam> Black Peter> Around> Good Lovin E: Don't Ease
only "Dear Prudence Jam"

Just listened - sounds like either the intro to Dear Prudence or Strawberry Fields - only goes on for about 30 seconds.


HaHa, yeah, DP jam also seems to be code for anything sounding vaguely Beatles-esque.
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lucasmcain



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wishful thinking on all of them. Prudence is more defined. These jams seem to be a variation of MLB>
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, the 12/30/91 is a DP Jam, but the 3/13/82 is just an odd little blend of several beatles tunes, and is short!
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lucasmcain



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not budging on this one Koch. Listen to some JGB and they aren't even close. The 12/30/91 is very similar to another jam into Space. From perhaps Dozin at the Knick or the Terrapin limited release, I may be off, but I'll poke around. The jam is not refined enough.
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its a DP jam, you should be comparing it to the version by the Beatles, not JGB. It is clearly matching up with that. I listened to both (Beatles version on White Album and 12/30/91), and MLB jams within several minutes apart from each other. It is definitely a DP jam. It isn't a full fledged DP, but it is nevertheless a short DP jam as per the version by the Beatles.

Let's get a third opinion... someone listen to the White Album Dear Prudence, then the "Dear Prudence Jam" on 12/30/91 Miller SBD source. Then listen to some MLB Jams.
Tell us what you think.
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lucasmcain



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm definately not sold as it pertains to the White Album version, which I can say that I've listened to about a million times. I've listened to the 12/30/91 jam 3 times now and I'm still not picking it up. The Beatles version seems to hang on one major chord with little add ins. ( if that makes any sense at all ) 12/30 is definately a progression of chords ala MLB.

It's nice but a whole other arguement can be made as to when does a section of music constitute a "Jam" or a named tune. We could probably go on for a long time on that theme.
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snow_and_rain
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12/30/91 is the wrong key for DP. The chord structure is more like MLB, but it's not quite that either.
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing
Yes, jam definitions are known to be disputed... I don't even know what I have on my HD as the listing... ha!
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snow_and_rain
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MLB jam is a pretty non-specific thing, as far as I'm concerned. It's used to describe many things that sound like Paul Kantner's "Your Mind Has Left Your Body,"including the refrains from The Music Never Stopped ("There's a band out on the highway.." part). TMNS is in E, but the refrain walks that same chromatic bit in A.

Dear Prudence is played in the key of D, though it has a similar sequence, hence the confusion.

I think that the Heaven Help the Fool intro does more or less the same progression in E. You can tell when it's HHTF jam because it's more than just a descending progression. It drops into a big E chord or something and hangs there for 16 beats before returning to the progression.
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lucasmcain



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snow_and_rain wrote:
MLB jam is a pretty non-specific thing, as far as I'm concerned. It's used to describe many things that sound like Paul Kantner's "Your Mind Has Left Your Body,"including the refrains from The Music Never Stopped ("There's a band out on the highway.." part). TMNS is in E, but the refrain walks that same chromatic bit in A.

Dear Prudence is played in the key of D, though it has a similar sequence, hence the confusion.

I think that the Heaven Help the Fool intro does more or less the same progression in E. You can tell when it's HHTF jam because it's more than just a descending progression. It drops into a big E chord or something and hangs there for 16 beats before returning to the progression.


I think you hit it right there S&R. The key of Prudence doesn't change much until the " Look around round round part." The MLB is a descending riff. Prudence, not as much. But I don't have a clue how to express it musically. I can play guitar but never took lessons or read music.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright I just listened to a JGB DP then the mythicaly 12/30/90 DP jam. I have to agree with Koch. Garcia is playing some DP elements. Phil on the other hand is not. So at first listen it doesn't really sound like it. Also, Weird was in his own little world as was Vinny. But Garcia was in the realms of Dear Prudence.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Vinny was "flow moaning", perhaps channeling Donna from afar.
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe it was 3/10/85 that has Jerry out there with the drummers, when the rest of the band is backstage for drums, that has a bonafide Dear Prudence Jam.
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lucasmcain



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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No way Koch!! 3/10/85 is in now way bonafide. If you're calling this a Prudence then goe ahead and change a whole of bunch of Jams from 73-74. Truckin> Prudence>Other One would be in a lot of sets, hell even maybe some China>Prudence>Riders as well. It just doesn't come off or together as the Beatles or JGB, But.........

If this is a Prudence interpretation, then Garcia took the once wholesome, pure and unspoiled version of Prudence that Lennon created, and turned her into a cheap, used up whore, who hangs out at sleezy, Chateau's in L.A doin DP's for a few bumps of blow! Very Happy
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lucasmcain wrote:
No way Koch!! 3/10/85 is in now way bonafide. If you're calling this a Prudence then goe ahead and change a whole of bunch of Jams from 73-74. Truckin> Prudence>Other One would be in a lot of sets, hell even maybe some China>Prudence>Riders as well. It just doesn't come off or together as the Beatles or JGB, But.........

If this is a Prudence interpretation, then Garcia took the once wholesome, pure and unspoiled version of Prudence that Lennon created, and turned her into a cheap, used up whore, who hangs out at sleezy, Chateau's in L.A doin DP's for a few bumps of blow! Very Happy

Not to call you out, but while we were listening to this show, you said it was definitely a Dear Prudence jam... sorry to bust you out like that, but unless my spotty memory is failing me...
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maximinus



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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't currently have the resources to check out the music (archive.org is currently banned in China Mad ) but I'd classify it as a DP jam if Jerry is using a reggae beat (emphasis on the third beat).

Obviously Jerry played this song a bunch of times in JGB so I'd assume that if he was thinking 'let's put a bit of DP here' he'd be doing it the JGB way. This is NOT similar to the Beatles version which doesn't feature such a strong beat. So the fact that whatever he plays is different from what the Beatles played does not mean this isn't a DP jam.

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fillmoreeast



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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12/30/91 is definitly DP (see White Album or listen) hell you can even sing the lyrics in this version.

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Kochman
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maximinus wrote:
I don't currently have the resources to check out the music (archive.org is currently banned in China Mad )

That's messed up!
Not surprising really, but man, the government's fear factor is pretty intense... I can't imagine.
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My votes:

3/13/83 DP
3/10/85 MLB
12/30/91 Neither. Just mush.

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lucasmcain



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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
lucasmcain wrote:
No way Koch!! 3/10/85 is in now way bonafide. If you're calling this a Prudence then goe ahead and change a whole of bunch of Jams from 73-74. Truckin> Prudence>Other One would be in a lot of sets, hell even maybe some China>Prudence>Riders as well. It just doesn't come off or together as the Beatles or JGB, But.........

If this is a Prudence interpretation, then Garcia took the once wholesome, pure and unspoiled version of Prudence that Lennon created, and turned her into a cheap, used up whore, who hangs out at sleezy, Chateau's in L.A doin DP's for a few bumps of blow! Very Happy

Not to call you out, but while we were listening to this show, you said it was definitely a Dear Prudence jam... sorry to bust you out like that, but unless my spotty memory is failing me...


Totally disaree becasue I have been denying any Prudence Jams to begin with from the start. Must have been someone else. Now I may have got excited about it because of the Day Job encore but I doubt I ever touted this as a Prudence Jam. But my memory is spoty too, but this ain't no Prudence!
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