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1991... the overlooked year

 
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:21 pm    Post subject: 1991... the overlooked year Reply with quote

OK... I saw some comment on here that got me thinking about how underappreciated this year is...
There are some BAD, SLOPPY shows, sure...

But there are some KEY, INCREDIBLE shows...

Give me your pros and cons, and feel free to list a few shows as examples of either...

And the commentor in question... Zephyr... in the what era is what thread...
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swamiGD80s
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thread title would be - "1991 - the overrated year."

I hardly think that it's "overlooked." Many here at the Pub probably consider it to have been the last really good year... which is absurd given the fact that 1993 occurred two years after. To me 1993 is clearly better than 1991.

While Bruce had some great shows, jams, solos, etc, and inspired Jerry into some happy-sounding music, there was also quite a bit of "stepping on toes" within the keyboard section, and very little musical space in which to breathe. Everyone was trying to "toot their own horn," a metaphor I use do to all of the MIDI action. While I love a good Jerry MIDI solo, I never really liked Bobby's MIDI playing in 1991.

Back to Jerry - his guitar playing was not outstanding for the most part. Going back to my 1993 statement, Jerry's guitar tone was much crisper and his leads were more ferocious in 1993. Jerry reclaimed the band in '93, whereas in 1991 it was a wild circus-like soundscape which worked sometimes, and other times not. There are so many smokin Jerry solos from 1993 and I just can't find as many in 1991of the same caliber.

Still I like 1991 and there are some great shows. In summary I prefer 1991 over 1992, 1994, and 1995 - but it is not quite as good as 1993 - and definitely a step down from 1990.

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Kochman
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Jerry was more in charge (for the most part) in 1993. You make a good point... but my point here is not to do direct comparisons... I will go down that route for a minute though because it is interesting; your idea that is.

We can both agree in 91 & 93 there were flubbed shows, so that will just be considered a given, and for arguments sake, we will say each year had an equal number of flubs.

Jerry's tone in both years is to me, enjoyable. If I had to pick, I too would go with the tone from later in 93, though it is a close one. I find the 91 tone to also be crisp, and he really hits some higher notes that he doesn't really hit in 93. In 93 there is more of a flowing guitar sound at times though that I like... for an example see the Turtle Jam attached to Terrapin Station 6/23/93... WOW.

However, aside from Jerry... I think the rest of the band was into some really cool shit. This is a matter of personal preference of course... I prefer the chaos and exploration that more members can make. A perfect example is 9/10/91... you either love it, or you think it is pretty darned overrated. I fall in the "I love it" camp. The extra noises, circus sounds, effects, additional branching out/explorations made possible by having more players staying on theme (meaning that if there are still 4 people on theme, two people could more easily branch out into MIDI land together and thereby cover new ground)... my ears/brain thrive on listening to that stuff... Another factor of course, Brent and the use of the piano AND the accordion. Just two more dimensions possible during exploration and also during SPACE...

In the end... I love both of these years tremendously, probably more than most. Sometimes I give the nod to 91, sometimes to 93... that is why my intent wasn't to go over the differences in a comparison, as sometimes I am bigger on 93 than 91... so I would be supporting your points, and there would be no debate.

Rather, I was hoping to look at the year. I do think it is overlooked... perhaps not here so much... but in general... Just as many people draw the line in the sand at when Keith left the band, and declare all that follows to be whack... people do that with the passing of Brent. Most will give MSG90 credit at least, but it still falls within 90.

So many times I have seen things like 89-90 was the last good years... or even statements like, everything up to 1990... Leaving 91, which was really a continuation of the steam gathered in 89 & 90, seemingly out in the cold.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to side with Swami on this. I dont think 91 is underrated.
The summer tour was strong, although most of the Spring tour doesnt really do it for me. I think it is touted as the bands last great hurrah/period of really strong playing, which is a fallacy because you guys are right, there is alot of great stuff in 93, although the weak point of that year (and 1992) is the introduction of some lame tunes which kind of ruined the momentum.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't think 91 was overratted at all. The Greensboro run was strong in the Spring and the Fall tour had good runs as well. Boston Garden comes to mind.

91 versus 93 is a whole other thread.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed lucas...


So, dude, are you saying that 3/17/91 & 3/21/91 & 3/31/91 & 4/1/19 don't do it for you? Yikesers...
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Agreed lucas...


So, dude, are you saying that 3/17/91 & 3/21/91 & 3/31/91 & 4/1/19 don't do it for you? Yikesers...


Well, they are good shows (I was at 3/18-21 - missed 3/17) but the Vince keyboard factor is distracting during this era. Havent heard 3/31. Of those shows my fave is actually 3/20. Great second set. I just dont think that Spring tour is as strong or interesting as the summer.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The June Summer Tour was definitely the best, most consistent part of 1991.

Secondly, I like the Spring.

Last and least is the Fall, which I have never cared for one bit.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fall has some nice shows... 9/6/91 for example is sweet.
Swami I know you are on the other side of the 9/10/91 argument, so I won't expect you to suddenly like that show.
How about that 9/20/91? (The Help>Slip>Fire show we listened to)...
I am still just kind of getting into the fall stuff, because some of it is too sloppy even for my ears, like 9/25/91 the DP... slopfest 91.
Many folks like 10/31/91 of course... I don't really count myself in that lot, though perhaps I need to give it another shot.
I just finished DLing the NYE91 DVDs, so I should give that a whirl sometime too...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I consider 09-20-91 to be average at best - prefer 09-26-91 the final show of the tour, over anything before it. 09-10-91 is a very good show; it just seems to be a bit slowed down compared to the frenzied jammaction in June.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a damn good show:
MSG 9/16/91
Feel Like A Stranger ; Bertha ; New Minglewood Blues ; It Must Have Been The Roses ; Dire Wolf ; Queen Jane Approximately ; West L.A. Fadeaway ; The Music Never Stopped ; Don't Ease Me In
Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodeloo ; Saint Of Circumstance [6:54] > Comes A Time [8:15] > Uncle John's Band > Drums > Space > Goin' Down The Road Feeling Bad > Attics Of My Life > Good Lovin'
Encore Johnny B. Goode

And I agree about 9/26. that 2nd set is a smooth, sweet ride.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
I consider 09-20-91 to be average at best - prefer 09-26-91 the final show of the tour, over anything before it. 09-10-91 is a very good show; it just seems to be a bit slowed down compared to the frenzied jammaction in June.


I agree 9/10/91 is very slow tempo, with the sax and all... I put it on when I want to chill out... its very jazzy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
The June Summer Tour was definitely the best, most consistent part of 1991.


Agreed.

I love '91 and have run out of things to say.....
9/22/91 is my favorite of the Garden run.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listening to 3/20/91 right now. This show has a fantastic first set..

Feel Like A Stranger, Cold Rain & Snow, Little Red Rooster, Althea, Black Throated Wind, Tennessee Jed, The Music Never Stopped, Might As Well

Every one's a winner. First Might as well for several years. Second set anchored by a 20-min Eyes into Foolish.

Eyes Of The World-> Foolish Heart, Estimated Prophet-> He's Gone-> Drums-> Jam-> The Other One-> Wharf Rat-> Sugar Magnolia, E: The Weight

This is a money show, and there were great shows from every tour in 91. Check 3/21. Greensboro! I liked the whole fall tour. Everyone forgets Richfield 9/4 was a hot, hot show with a BIG Scarlet->Fire.
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:09 pm    Post subject: Vinny-only Reply with quote

To add some fuel to this fire - how about these Vinny-only efforts from 1991:

03-25-91 Knickerbocker (see review)
03-27-91 Nassau
12-28-91 Oakland

I'm surprised that these 3 are not talked about more - all 3 being outstanding performances. Could it be that the lack of Bruce has caused people not to give them a chance??? Question Cool

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Vinny-only Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
To add some fuel to this fire - how about these Vinny-only efforts from 1991:

03-25-91 Knickerbocker (see review)
03-27-91 Nassau
12-28-91 Oakland

I'm surprised that these 3 are not talked about more - all 3 being outstanding performances. Could it be that the lack of Bruce has caused people not to give them a chance??? Question Cool


Here is another question to add to this. Did Bruce hurt Vinny as a viable keyboardist? Vinny was the only guy they had to bring in someone else to "help out". I think the band maybe didn't give him the chance he deserved. That goes back to the 91-93 debate. 93 I personally dig more. No Bruce giving Vinny more room to let loose.
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I currently dig 93 more, but it isn't because of Vinny at all. Its because of Jerry being on. In fact, Vinny was more of a lead weight than anyone else in 93. He had some fully developed, annoying cheesy licks by 93. WTGH was played every other damn show practically, etc. 93 was not a great year for Vin.

Bruce didn't hold Vinny back. Look, I love Vinny Goombatz, but, that's like saying that having Garcia on stage held back other guitarists. If Garcia got the spotlight more, its because he was better and his product was more enjoyable... same goes for Bruce-Vinny.
Bruce is miles beyond Vinny in skills, and I would rather have Bruce steppin' on Vinny's toes than the other way around any day! A million times over.

I have heard some odd argument that Bruce stunted Vinny's growth. Total kaka. Vince was a full grown man, his skills were in place. He wasn't in his youth...
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
I currently dig 93 more, but it isn't because of Vinny at all. Its because of Jerry being on. In fact, Vinny was more of a lead weight than anyone else in 93. He had some fully developed, annoying cheesy licks by 93. WTGH was played every other damn show practically, etc. 93 was not a great year for Vin.

Bruce didn't hold Vinny back. Look, I love Vinny Goombatz, but, that's like saying that having Garcia on stage held back other guitarists. If Garcia got the spotlight more, its because he was better and his product was more enjoyable... same goes for Bruce-Vinny.
Bruce is miles beyond Vinny in skills, and I would rather have Bruce steppin' on Vinny's toes than the other way around any day! A million times over.

I have heard some odd argument that Bruce stunted Vinny's growth. Total kaka. Vince was a full grown man, his skills were in place. He wasn't in his youth...


That is a fair argument. Yet I still don't think Bruce should have jumped on board the ship for that first tour. Or maybe Bruce should have been the only keys they had in that year as they searched out maybe a better keyboard player. I do like Vinny and his contributions but as your example WTGH proves maybe there was someone better suited for the seat.
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other problem with Vince is the consistent, cheesy rifs he would do as the years progressed. It doesn't really happen much in 90-91... it was something that he developed over time... some kind of security blanket for him I guess.

Mevlin Seals???
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
The other problem with Vince is the consistent, cheesy rifs he would do as the years progressed. It doesn't really happen much in 90-91... it was something that he developed over time... some kind of security blanket for him I guess.

Mevlin Seals???


Haha, Melvin Seals wouldn't go off into territory better known to Devo though.
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I was saying, what if Melvin Seals had taken the job, instead of Vinny, after that year of searching.
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh ok. Man the Dead in the 90s would be nothing to scoff at if that happened. Cause I am goin to bet that Seals could have kept Jerry playin a little better in the Dead.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dig 91, for the most obvious reasons!

9-6-91 blew my mind, especially the Terrapin.

And 6-22-91, while it doesn't come across on the recording, was intense. They seemed to be playing with atmospheric conditions that night. See, Soldier Field was blanketed in low thick clouds, and Phil and the drummers would pound out some low level gut shakers that reverberated out into the city. The Black Peter from that night was my ON THE BUS moment, and while I didn't have the savvy to catch it that night, the Darkstar Jam is nothing to scoff at.

I have not heard the shows in a long time, but I remember having some great tapes from Bonner Springs, KS that I believe to be 91 (6/24 maybe?) as well. I'll have to go back and research that sometime.

In short, that 91 Soldier Field show was singly responsible for hundreds of new Chicago area Heads, and that says something.
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They did 2 nights in KS that year... 6/24 & 6/25, both nights are pretty solid.

I like when you wrote...
"my get on the bus moment"

You should make a thread about get on the bus moments...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both Spring Greensboro shows are good doin.
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dylan&theded



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is a perfect thread for me now, trying to get a show from every year downloaded to the ipod and have gone from 68 - 90 pretty easily. now just to figure out 91 92 and 94
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dogstarz wrote:
Oh ok. Man the Dead in the 90s would be nothing to scoff at if that happened. Cause I am goin to bet that Seals could have kept Jerry playin a little better in the Dead.


That would have been great. I love Melvin Seals. I was not a big Vince fan at the time but I am trying to listen with an open mind, I don't think I gave Vince the credit he deserved.

I like Baba Never Knows. Also Samba. I think I need to spend some time revisiting 93.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugarmag wrote:

I like Baba Never Knows. Also Samba. I think I need to spend some time revisiting 93.

Hey! Wow! The opposite of a samba bashing! Yeah!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deer creek 94 was good. 7-20. It is a Swami pick

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am listening to it right now. You would not like it because the next song is LLR, LOL. LLL Laughing

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dylan&theded wrote:
this is a perfect thread for me now, trying to get a show from every year downloaded to the ipod and have gone from 68 - 90 pretty easily. now just to figure out 91 92 and 94


Hey d&d,

There are a ton of good 91 shows, but here are a few you might try:

3/20/91
6/9/91
6/14/91
6/22/91
9/4/91
9/10/91
9/22/91
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good call, I just noticed there are not many lists here for 91 in this thread...
Here's my hack at it, just mentioning shows S&R didn't:
3/17/91
3/21/91
6/17/91
6/19/91
8/16/91
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dylan&theded wrote:
now just to figure out 91 92 and 94


There's a severe lack of '92 shows. (Probably only because there isn't as much of it) I don't listen to the 90's much . . . but the '92 show I know pretty well and would recommend is 6/20/92 RFK, DC. Definitely check that one out!

sugarmag wrote:
I like Baba Never Knows. Also Samba.


That's cool you like Samba. That's also nuts to many Deadheads; it was such a hated song by so many . . . but to each her own :)

And to each his own... there was a time, I'm pretty sure at Soldier Field in '94, when Samba started and people were sittin' twiddling their thumbswhile I was like the only one in the whole section dancin' my ass off! I like it, too, it's got a good rhythm!

I checked for you if there's a show when they played both Samba and Baba... but no such luck.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no expert on 92, but they were playing decent shows in June. One that I like to listen to is 6/8/92. I'm biased because I was at that one, but it's considered one of the better 92 shows. An unusually strong first set for 92, with great versions of Stranger, Loser, SMR and JLTTB. A lot of people think this is one of the best version of SMR. Second set has a great China> Rider, a nice little MLB jam out of Corrina, and a surprise Dark Star> Last Time out of Space.

Check it out!

Feel Like A Stranger, Loser, Little Red Rooster, So Many Roads, Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues, Black Throated Wind, Don't Ease Me In

China Cat Sunflower-> I Know You Rider, Crazy Fingers-> Corinna-> Jam*-> Drums-> Jam-> Dark Star**-> The Last Time-> Stella Blue-> Sugar Magnolia, E: U.S. Blues
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were they still playing Baba O'Reilly in 94? Because that's when they started with Samba...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4/7/91
6/6/91
6/14/91
6/24/91
6/25/91
8/14/91
9/4/91
9/6/91
9/22/91
9/26/91

Pretty much the only tour of the year I consider weak is the MSG run.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Were they still playing Baba O'Reilly in 94?


Baba O'Riley:

05/19/92- Cal Expo Amphitheater - Sacramento, CA
05/25/92- Shoreline Amphitheatre - Mountain View, CA
05/31/92- Sam Boyd Silver Bowl - Las Vegas, NV
06/06/92- Rich Stadium - Orchard Park, NY
06/14/92- Giants Stadium - East Rutherford, NJ
06/20/92- Robert F. Kennedy Stadium - Washington DC, DC
07/01/92- Buckeye Lake Music Center - Hebron, OH
12/17/92- Oakland Coliseum Arena - Oakland, CA
03/21/93- The Omni - Atlanta, GA
05/21/93- Shoreline Amphitheatre - Mountain View, CA
09/20/93- Madison Square Garden - New York City, NY
11/29/94- McNichols Sports Arena - Denver, CO


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! Probably not the most memorable show. I don't think I have heard it at least.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugarmag wrote:
, I don't think I gave Vince the credit he deserved.


I'm not a huge Vince fan either, but it strikes me to say at this moment that not many of us gave Vince the credit he deserved. I mean shit, Brent, as much as he is respected, never felt like he was an insider after over 10 years with the band. Imagine how hard it was for Vince. In the hot seat in more ways than one, and obviously second choice for the role. That would suck!

I think next to the BS that happened with Deb Koons after Jerry died, this is one of the darkest chapters in GD family history.

The man had a style that was too much Beach Boys for my taste, but I can also remember a few moments there in 94 - 95 where I was quite thankful for Vince's chops and vocals.

At the end of the day, does anyone witness a train wreck and notice how good the whistle sounded? (ok maybe a few times in 92 we commented on the train whistle - and the Baba> TNK, - 5/25)

Maybe he was the second or fifth best keyboard player in the Grateful Dead, but he WAS the keboard player for the Grateful Fuckin' Dead!

What I mean to say is...

...here's to Vince!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoooma wrote:
dylan&theded wrote:
now just to figure out 91 92 and 94


There's a severe lack of '92 shows. (Probably only because there isn't as much of it) I don't listen to the 90's much . . . but the '92 show I know pretty well and would recommend is 6/20/92 RFK, DC. Definitely check that one out!

sugarmag wrote:
I like Baba Never Knows. Also Samba.


That's cool you like Samba. That's also nuts to many Deadheads; it was such a hated song by so many . . . but to each her own :)

And to each his own... there was a time, I'm pretty sure at Soldier Field in '94, when Samba started and people were sittin' twiddling their thumbswhile I was like the only one in the whole section dancin' my ass off! I like it, too, it's got a good rhythm!

I checked for you if there's a show when they played both Samba and Baba... but no such luck.


I did not really like Samba at the time, either, but I liked it when I heard it yesterday. I wanted to give it a chance.

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dylan&theded



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
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swamiGD80s
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

onthebus91 wrote:
sugarmag wrote:
, I don't think I gave Vince the credit he deserved.


I'm not a huge Vince fan either, but it strikes me to say at this moment that not many of us gave Vince the credit he deserved. I mean shit, Brent, as much as he is respected, never felt like he was an insider after over 10 years with the band. Imagine how hard it was for Vince. In the hot seat in more ways than one, and obviously second choice for the role. That would suck!

I think next to the BS that happened with Deb Koons after Jerry died, this is one of the darkest chapters in GD family history.

The man had a style that was too much Beach Boys for my taste, but I can also remember a few moments there in 94 - 95 where I was quite thankful for Vince's chops and vocals.

At the end of the day, does anyone witness a train wreck and notice how good the whistle sounded? (ok maybe a few times in 92 we commented on the train whistle - and the Baba> TNK, - 5/25)

Maybe he was the second or fifth best keyboard player in the Grateful Dead, but he WAS the keboard player for the Grateful Fuckin' Dead!

What I mean to say is...

...here's to Vince!




Talk about an underhanded compliment! Fifth-best keyboard player?! Try second best.

Vince is not some retarded child whom we need to shower with compliments despite obvious shortcomings to make ourselves feel better. He was a damn good musician and an excellent part of the band. He was certainly more talented than Keith - Keith benefited from being with the band during a more youthful period. Nevertheless his piano still lagged behind the rest of the band except for some shining moments in 72-74.

Nothing gets me fired up more regarding the Grateful Dead than Vince-bashing, and the worst kind of V-bash is this patronizing attitude of "let's give him some credit." Why is it so painful to give any credit to a member of the band for almost their last 5 years, who was bold enough to write some of his own songs and sing them, and who rocked the house down many-a-night.

Vince was there when Bruce DIDN'T FEEL LIKE it - Vince was there when the GD needed new songs, new material. Way To Go Home and Samba both gave Jerry an excellent platform to lay down some solos - unfortunately by the time Samba came out Jerry was unable to deliver like his old self. Imagine a Samba in 1983?? Yea exactly. And finally, Vince was there when we were there - at the shows.

The same whiners that didn't accept Brent for his first 10 years in the band, always hearkening back to the K&D years while Brent was rocking your face off, were there again after Brent's death. Instead of realizing that the band's sound had yet again evolved and accepting into the family a great talent who loved our music and was overjoyed to be involved, these same people scoffed at him - saying that he sucked, he was the worst, the band couldn't be great with him anymore, etc.... BECAUSE OF Vinny, amongst other things, I prefer 90s Grateful Dead over 70s GD and I consider that to be a very viable position. There was more talent at the keyboard position, bar none. And then throw in the Bruce factor and it's cake.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here at the Pub, so call of the personal attack watchdogs. I am and will always will be a Vince supporter - and he needs no "handicap" or special treatment from Deadheads.

Sure he had some cheesy keyboard licks fairly often, especially the signature V-lick that he sometimes fell back on at inopportune times. But I submit to you that Grateful Dead music was cheesy by nature - Brent was often cheesy! When there's fun, there's some cheese (and beer, right cheesebeer?). Get over it!!!!

And if anyone reading identifies with the general rejection of Vince within the Grateful Dead community, and feels that he "ruined" the band, or somehow was responsible for the end being near...than I say congratulations to you. Vince committed suicide.

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dogstarz
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
onthebus91 wrote:
sugarmag wrote:
, I don't think I gave Vince the credit he deserved.


I'm not a huge Vince fan either, but it strikes me to say at this moment that not many of us gave Vince the credit he deserved. I mean shit, Brent, as much as he is respected, never felt like he was an insider after over 10 years with the band. Imagine how hard it was for Vince. In the hot seat in more ways than one, and obviously second choice for the role. That would suck!

I think next to the BS that happened with Deb Koons after Jerry died, this is one of the darkest chapters in GD family history.

The man had a style that was too much Beach Boys for my taste, but I can also remember a few moments there in 94 - 95 where I was quite thankful for Vince's chops and vocals.

At the end of the day, does anyone witness a train wreck and notice how good the whistle sounded? (ok maybe a few times in 92 we commented on the train whistle - and the Baba> TNK, - 5/25)

Maybe he was the second or fifth best keyboard player in the Grateful Dead, but he WAS the keboard player for the Grateful Fuckin' Dead!

What I mean to say is...

...here's to Vince!




Talk about an underhanded compliment! Fifth-best keyboard player?! Try second best.

Vince is not some retarded child whom we need to shower with compliments despite obvious shortcomings to make ourselves feel better. He was a damn good musician and an excellent part of the band. He was certainly more talented than Keith - Keith benefited from being with the band during a more youthful period. Nevertheless his piano still lagged behind the rest of the band except for some shining moments in 72-74.

Nothing gets me fired up more regarding the Grateful Dead than Vince-bashing, and the worst kind of V-bash is this patronizing attitude of "let's give him some credit." Why is it so painful to give any credit to a member of the band for almost their last 5 years, who was bold enough to write some of his own songs and sing them, and who rocked the house down many-a-night.

Vince was there when Bruce DIDN'T FEEL LIKE it - Vince was there when the GD needed new songs, new material. Way To Go Home and Samba both gave Jerry an excellent platform to lay down some solos - unfortunately by the time Samba came out Jerry was unable to deliver like his old self. Imagine a Samba in 1983?? Yea exactly. And finally, Vince was there when we were there - at the shows.

The same whiners that didn't accept Brent for his first 10 years in the band, always hearkening back to the K&D years while Brent was rocking your face off, were there again after Brent's death. Instead of realizing that the band's sound had yet again evolved and accepting into the family a great talent who loved our music and was overjoyed to be involved, these same people scoffed at him - saying that he sucked, he was the worst, the band couldn't be great with him anymore, etc.... BECAUSE OF Vinny, amongst other things, I prefer 90s Grateful Dead over 70s GD and I consider that to be a very viable position. There was more talent at the keyboard position, bar none. And then throw in the Bruce factor and it's cake.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here at the Pub, so call of the personal attack watchdogs. I am and will always will be a Vince supporter - and he needs no "handicap" or special treatment from Deadheads.

Sure he had some cheesy keyboard licks fairly often, especially the signature V-lick that he sometimes fell back on at inopportune times. But I submit to you that Grateful Dead music was cheesy by nature - Brent was often cheesy! When there's fun, there's some cheese (and beer, right cheesebeer?). Get over it!!!!

And if anyone reading identifies with the general rejection of Vince within the Grateful Dead community, and feels that he "ruined" the band, or somehow was responsible for the end being near...than I say congratulations to you. Vince committed suicide.


Interesting Swami. Personally, Vince was the keyboardist that I first listened to a lot. Sure I listened to Dozin' At The Knick a lot when I first started listening to the Dead. Yet my Dad's tapes mainly were 90's shows. I was rather uneducated when it came to members of the band. It was all The Grateful Dead to me. So when I listened to a 95 Salt Lake City show I was excited because it was the Grateful Dead and it was one of the few tapes my dad had. Hmm, looking back on it, I think there was one show from the 70's in my formative Grateful Dead listening years. It was a 72 show from Denmark if I am right. Then there was 95 shows. Vince had taught me to listen to for the keys. Then Brent had fine tuned that listening style. I have also listened to some Vinny solo stuff on archive.org. At times his band sounded like a bar band (sort of like Donna and The Tricksters). Yet Vinny's post Grateful Dead music was an outlet for him. I think he was the most grateful musician post Dead to play Dead music. He had a St.Stephen that could rival some Grateful Dead versions. Even his band was called Missing Man Formation. Who was the missing man? I will let you take a guess at that. Vince was a passionate person who not only did Deadheads find to be a scapegoat for the rest of the bands growing carelessness for the music but took it all very personal. Bob Weir could have prevented Vinny's demise. He tried to OD on a Ratdog bus. After that Bob fired him and never let him back into the world of GD. He was hurt that he wasn't asked to join the band for any of the reunions. The Grateful Dead Family reunion was like a slap in the face to Vince.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Vinny took a lot of heat for what was more often just the rest of the band's lack of interest. To be fair, Vince had some bad shows. But I'll never forget the really warm vibe I felt at his first two shows in Richfield. He came out really strong, especially the second night. Also, the way I understand it, Vince didn't have much control over the tones that his keyboard produced. Apparently Bralove kept him on a short leash.
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fillmoreeast



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never understood the bashing or the patronization. He was a talented musican who enjoyed success long before he was asked to play w/the dead. Like what was written above by swami(only a different decade) I prefer 90s Dead over 80s. I remember the first show I saw him play at Oakland-wish I could remember the date because it was fine show with alot of energy. Nobody was complaining about the new guy at the keyboard.
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onthebus91



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:

Vince is not some retarded child whom we need to shower with compliments despite obvious shortcomings to make ourselves feel better.


Damn swami...

I guess I came across patronizing, maybe I wasn't as eloquent as I shoulda been.

My point being, I agree that Vince didn't get the credit he deserved, and it's a shame the way things went down.

I'll just leave it at that...
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Duderino



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he was a talented pianist (borne out by some really nice work circa 93-94) but I never was blown away by his synth textures and fills, but that was more of a function of having to compete with Bruce to be heard. I agree he got a bum rap, but it was the Dead's own fault. You bring in Bruce to essentially "train" Vince. That does not help the old self esteem or probably his standing with the heads.

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Zoooma



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duderino wrote:
I think he was a talented pianist (borne out by some really nice work circa 93-94) but I never was blown away by his synth textures and fills, but that was more of a function of having to compete with Bruce to be heard. I agree he got a bum rap, but it was the Dead's own fault. You bring in Bruce to essentially "train" Vince. That does not help the old self esteem or probably his standing with the heads.


Vince has good moments here and there but when did this turn into a Vince thread? Anyway.....

GD shoulda been all Bruce after Brent. What a freakin' sound, man. He added to so many songs and he could've had an even bigger role -- to take some of the weight off of Jerry and inspire him to rip and hit those peaks we all wanted. And Hornsby still coulda done his deal on the side just like Garcia.

Dang....
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onthebus91



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoooma wrote:
when did this turn into a Vince thread?


oops...

so ...

Sandstone Amp. Bonner Springs, KS 6/24 or 6/25? Which was the better show? I had one of them on cassette years ago, and remember it being a good show, but cant remember which it was. I want to DL and go back and visit...

I'm thinking 6/24 for the Estimated>Supplication, and well, the whole damn setlist. Then again the next night looks hot too...

Any input? Anyone attend?
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Duderino



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

onthebus91 wrote:
Zoooma wrote:
when did this turn into a Vince thread?


oops...

so ...

Sandstone Amp. Bonner Springs, KS 6/24 or 6/25? Which was the better show? I had one of them on cassette years ago, and remember it being a good show, but cant remember which it was. I want to DL and go back and visit...

I'm thinking 6/24 for the Estimated>Supplication, and well, the whole damn setlist. Then again the next night looks hot too...

Any input? Anyone attend?


Flip a coin. They are both outstanding IMO, but different.

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swamiGD80s
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a 6-24-91 guy all the way.

Sorry for the hijack...

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Gopher



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoooma wrote:

when did this turn into a Vince thread? Anyway.....

Shortly after the topics of '92, Samba In The Rain and Baba O' Reilly were discussed by someone Wink

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