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The Holy Crap, How Did This Miss The Top 100 Thread

 
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: The Holy Crap, How Did This Miss The Top 100 Thread Reply with quote

I have 3 major questions, personally...
7/10/81
10/2/81
10/21/83

Feel free to add... if you aren't Swami...
Feel free to address or ignore, if you are Swami...


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: The Holy Crap, How Didn't This Get in the Top 100 Po Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
I have 3 major questions, personally...
7/10/81
10/2/81
10/21/83

Feel free to add... if you aren't Swami...
Feel free to address or ignore, if you are Swami...


I thought we had a thread like this already, but maybe not. Anyway I'm happy to address these and any other particular shows:

7/10/81 yes I agree, slipped through the cracks. I'm happy with how my rating system performed in general, but there were a few unfortunate casualties due to it's nuances, and this omission is a tough pill to swallow.

10/2/81 very good show. There were 4 POL from Fall Europe '81, and I believe 10/2 would have been 5th in the pecking order. It was not far off the map.

10/21/83 we just have to agree to disagree. I don't find it to be a standout performance.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was surprised that I didn't see 3/29/90 or 10/26/89 (my #1 from the late-Brent era). For my two cents, I would have rated those both higher than 10/8/89, but everyone like what they like. Thanks for all the work and pointing me in some new directions Swami!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grateful_nirvanA wrote:
I was surprised that I didn't see 3/29/90 or 10/26/89 (my #1 from the late-Brent era). For my two cents, I would have rated those both higher than 10/8/89, but everyone like what they like. Thanks for all the work and pointing me in some new directions Swami!


3/29/90 - this show rated poorly and was not a contender for the list. Outside of the Dark Star-D/S-Dark Star, which is great, there is not much else to write home about. I find the Eyes to be slow and boring.

10/26/89 - this was a near miss. Really good show that almost made it.

I notice that both of these have Dark Stars as their centerpieces, and I imagine that you speak for a lot of Deadheads who would place some Dark Star shows at the top of their Brent Era list. I'm really not sure why this is the case, except for obviously that it is a song that harkens back to the band's earliest era. Obviously it opens the door for spacey jamming, but I would say that you certainly don't need a Dark Star to initiate spaciness, and nearly every show in the Brent Era already contains "Space," so I am still left scratching my head at to this song's enormous popularity in it's later incarnations.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, we had the thread about which escaped nomination.
This thread is more like, who did X nominated show escape.

I would place 10/2/81 at the top of Europe 81, followed by 10/19, personally. It has all the bells and whistles, setlist oddity, moments of X factor and consistent energy.
Since I like to take pot shots, 10/8/81, while I see how it scored some points, pre-drums especially... it is not nearly as hot, performance-wise. The S>F is along the lines, to me, the same type of performance of the Shakedown on 4/17/82... lackluster. They just weren't bringing it the way I enjoy.
I have thereby mentioned 2 shows off the tip of my tongue that I would exclude in favor of 10/2/81, but I also understand that my rating of 10/2/81 may be skewed.

I'd like some other opinions?


As far as 3/29/90, I knew going in this would not make Swami's list... how that Eyes is considered "extremely slow and boring" but the 4/17/82 was considered to be great... I'll never know... again.
Considering it was chosen for official release, on a highly selling compilation, and was adored by many... I find that criticism to be extremely off the mark and without merit. There's long been a Swami bias against Marsalis (and Bruce for that matter) with which I disagree.

Now, that 82 show is clearly an outlier that squeaked onto the list, so I will harken back to it as we discuss these shows. I don't need to beat the horse about why I don't like it... but as the weak link in the chain it will serve as the example.

I had a good idea Miami 89 wasn't going to make it... I honestly can't recall this show well enough to comment.


A major benefit of the PoL... I've got something like 20 shows I haven't heard in all these years that I need to check out!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember first hearing the Eyes on Without A Net, and within my little tape-trading circle our opinion was what a great official release compilation...except for the Eyes.

In defense of my dead-beaten horse that is 4/17/82 - on a factual matter, the Shakedown is not played at a slow tempo. I'm pretty certain that if you did a BPM analysis you would find that it's tempo is faster-than-average for Shakedown, so I'm not sure exactly how there is any comparison to the 3/29/90 issue, except for a basic difference of opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: The Holy Crap, How Did This Miss The Top 100 Thread Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
The Holy Crap, How Did This Miss The Top 100 Thread

Well, the top 10 list contained several shows I was unfamiliar with, so I need to check them all out prior to tossing up a short list of personal preferences. Until then, a huge thank you to Swami for taking the time to work up the list and write all those reviews. You, sir, are a gentleman and a deadhead. Muchas Garcias.

Z

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: The Holy Crap, How Did This Miss The Top 100 Thread Reply with quote

Zephyr wrote:
Kochman wrote:
The Holy Crap, How Did This Miss The Top 100 Thread

Well, the top 10 list contained several shows I was unfamiliar with, so I need to check them all out prior to tossing up a short list of personal preferences. Until then, a huge thank you to Swami for taking the time to work up the list and write all those reviews. You, sir, are a gentleman and a deadhead. Muchas Garcias.

Z


Thanks Z - a hawaiian shirt is recommended while listening to the New Haven (#4).

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
I remember first hearing the Eyes on Without A Net, and within my little tape-trading circle our opinion was what a great official release compilation...except for the Eyes.

In defense of my dead-beaten horse that is 4/17/82 - on a factual matter, the Shakedown is not played at a slow tempo. I'm pretty certain that if you did a BPM analysis you would find that it's tempo is faster-than-average for Shakedown, so I'm not sure exactly how there is any comparison to the 3/29/90 issue, except for a basic difference of opinion.

The quote "extremely slow and boring" was the comparison basis.

I've never heard anything other than kudos for that Eyes, and value my own opinion as well... never were the words, except from you, uttered that were anything like "except for Eyes", where I got my early deadheadism.
I know you don't like shows with Marsalis or Bruce, "too many musicians"... and refer to Vince only shows as preferred show...
so, I'll chalk that up to personal preference as well.


I doubt the veracity of the BPM claim, but it doesn't matter, as BPM =/= good/interesting
:deadhorse:



Zephyr, what was your final tally of PoL shows attended?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
swamiGD80s wrote:
I remember first hearing the Eyes on Without A Net, and within my little tape-trading circle our opinion was what a great official release compilation...except for the Eyes.

In defense of my dead-beaten horse that is 4/17/82 - on a factual matter, the Shakedown is not played at a slow tempo. I'm pretty certain that if you did a BPM analysis you would find that it's tempo is faster-than-average for Shakedown, so I'm not sure exactly how there is any comparison to the 3/29/90 issue, except for a basic difference of opinion.

The quote "extremely slow and boring" was the comparison basis.

I've never heard anything other than kudos for that Eyes, and value my own opinion as well... never were the words, except from you, uttered that were anything like "except for Eyes", where I got my early deadheadism.
I know you don't like shows with Marsalis or Bruce, "too many musicians"... and refer to Vince only shows as preferred show...
so, I'll chalk that up to personal preference as well.


I doubt the veracity of the BPM claim, but it doesn't matter, as BPM =/= good/interesting
:deadhorse:



Zephyr, what was your final tally of PoL shows attended?


I edited out the word "extremely." Is that better?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BPM isn't a good measuring stick...
We like mostly the same... and then there are extreme outliers like 4/17/82.
Variety is the spice of life...
I still have about 20 shows to delve into...
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Zephyr, what was your final tally of PoL shows attended?


14: I topped out at Swami #26:

12/9/81
9/6/83
6/12/84
11/4/85
8/15/87
11/7/87
6/25/88
6/28/88
6/30/88
7/29/88
7/31/88
7/19/89
7/6/90 (#26)
7/16/90

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Summer Tours did well in the countdown. This weekend I will be posting some statistics about the Top 100.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zephyr wrote:
Kochman wrote:
Zephyr, what was your final tally of PoL shows attended?


14: I topped out at Swami #26:

And how many shows did you see overall?
Trying to find your PoL ratio!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
Kochman wrote:
Zephyr, what was your final tally of PoL shows attended?


14: I topped out at Swami #26:

And how many shows did you see overall?
Trying to find your PoL ratio!

Hey! Just getting back to this scene after a nice holiday break. I hope ya'll are in the midst of a great holiday break of one sort or another.

I wasn't sure where to post - here? or the future nominations for PoL? - but here is where I am....

Quick answer: I saw 111 shows. So my ratio is 7.93%. Which is interestingly close to the ratio of shows I saw to the number they played (~815): 7.34%.

But, more importantly, here's my take on this thread's topic:
The PoL list is predicated on two things: The Algorithm and Swami's taste. I don't want to do an audit of how rigorously the Algorithm was applied ( Laughing ) and I completely accept, with abundant Namaste, Swami's discerning taste. Thus the list is a perfect artifact and, additionally, a portrait in Deadness of Swami's essential being - of his manifestation as a sapient, to say nothing of sentient, being - refracted through a deeply shared sonic universe. In other words, listening to the Swami100 is a fantastic way of getting to know Swami.

So they played over 800 shows with Brent? And they were more often than not totally freaking awesome??? It's obvious that a list of 200 shows could be constructed without falling too far off the bell-shaped shoulders of Awesome.

As such, the most auspicious repartee seems to me to be a response in kind. I couldn't begin to formulate an algorithm, though a manifesto of some sort ought to be (theoretically) possible. Manifesto or not, I intend to pay Swami the compliment of highlighting the "Zeebot Thirty." Mr. Green In essence they will be the 30 to 40 shows I would recommend to anyone, and yet they are not on the Swami100 list, perhaps entirely due to the the way the Algorithm is so closely harmonized to Swami's taste. Or maybe they just never got nominated. Or maybe they are only awesome when refracted through my taste; I hope not. I'd like to think they are all worth a close listen. I might emulate Swami's 5-at-a-time rollout.

Koch, maybe you'll follow suit after I put up my thirty (or forty)?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zephyr wrote:
As such, the most auspicious repartee seems to me to be a response in kind. I couldn't begin to formulate an algorithm, though a manifesto of some sort ought to be (theoretically) possible. Manifesto or not, I intend to pay Swami the compliment of highlighting the "Zeebot Thirty." Mr. Green In essence they will be the 30 to 40 shows I would recommend to anyone, and yet they are not on the Swami100 list, perhaps entirely due to the the way the Algorithm is so closely harmonized to Swami's taste. Or maybe they just never got nominated. Or maybe they are only awesome when refracted through my taste; I hope not. I'd like to think they are all worth a close listen. I might emulate Swami's 5-at-a-time rollout.

Koch, maybe you'll follow suit after I put up my thirty (or forty)?

First and foremost, welcome back, and I hope your holidays were pleasant.

That's a great idea!

In fact, I was saying to Swami, maybe you could also post your list of "High" aka "hot" shows from all the ones you listened to (some of which made the list, many that didn't for "setlist issues"? You know, without the bells and whistles of setlists algorhythms...
I came to this idea as I was working on the Golden Era Project, actually... and the primary show that made me? 8/27/82. It doesn't score super high on the bells and whistles, but the energy is solid throughout. Then I have other shows full of bells and whistles, but less solid execution.

Anyhow, yes, I will meet you on this journey Zephyr.
Like you, for the Brent Age, I will not use a series of metrics, but just give the "hot or not" rating consideration.

Are you saying you'll purposely exclude PoL shows, just to spread the wealth? Or that your list will also include non PoL shows?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
As such, the most auspicious repartee seems to me to be a response in kind. I couldn't begin to formulate an algorithm, though a manifesto of some sort ought to be (theoretically) possible. Manifesto or not, I intend to pay Swami the compliment of highlighting the "Zeebot Thirty." Mr. Green In essence they will be the 30 to 40 shows I would recommend to anyone, and yet they are not on the Swami100 list, perhaps entirely due to the the way the Algorithm is so closely harmonized to Swami's taste. Or maybe they just never got nominated. Or maybe they are only awesome when refracted through my taste; I hope not. I'd like to think they are all worth a close listen. I might emulate Swami's 5-at-a-time rollout.

Koch, maybe you'll follow suit after I put up my thirty (or forty)?

First and foremost, welcome back, and I hope your holidays were pleasant.

That's a great idea!

In fact, I was saying to Swami, maybe you could also post your list of "High" aka "hot" shows from all the ones you listened to (some of which made the list, many that didn't for "setlist issues"? You know, without the bells and whistles of setlists algorhythms...
I came to this idea as I was working on the Golden Era Project, actually... and the primary show that made me? 8/27/82. It doesn't score super high on the bells and whistles, but the energy is solid throughout. Then I have other shows full of bells and whistles, but less solid execution.

Anyhow, yes, I will meet you on this journey Zephyr.
Like you, for the Brent Age, I will not use a series of metrics, but just give the "hot or not" rating consideration.

Are you saying you'll purposely exclude PoL shows, just to spread the wealth? Or that your list will also include non PoL shows?

Yes, I will be highlighting only shows Swami has not already included in PoL. I'll also be doing it chronologically instead of trying to determine a pecking order.

In the end, between the three of us, we ought to have a fairly comprehensive list of the best of the best of the Brentski era, irrespective of personal taste.

I'm going to start packing my bags for the journey; see ya'lls on the trail.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice!
My list may be a bit slow, because of my efforts in the Golden Era... but I'm in!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:07 pm    Post subject: The Near Misses Reply with quote

Sorry if there is overlap with the lists to be forthcoming, but I thought it might be of interest to lay out the Top 10 near misses - the shows that just barely did not make the POL. In chronological order:

10-25-1979 New Haven
07-10-1981 St. Paul
08-16-1981 Eugene
08-28-1981 Long Beach
10-10-1982 Frost
03-22-1985 Hampton
04-14-1985 Irvine
06-24-1985 Riverbend
07-14-1985 Ventura
04-06-1987 Meadowlands

Yea, some killer shows in that list. Crying or Very sad

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10/10/82... I thought when 10/9/82 made it 10/10 was a shoe in, since it's vastly superior.
Don't worry, that's definitely on my forthcoming list... as well as another October date...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact, I'm going to ask for the breakdown of why 10/21/83 didn't make it... you glossed over that when I asked previously. No cop outs... you ain't a cop, are ya?

Are you saying it was med or low?
Because it hits the set list points... maybe a CC/Ramble On Rose deduction (which if it was high would put it at either 4.75 or 4.5), but if 4.25s made it, I'd love to know specifically how it wasn't a 4.25 or higher in the Swami's Estimation?

Here's my Estimation...
Opens with a TMNS, which isn't the ideal place for it, but a treat compared to some of its peers.
By Cumberland, perhaps the best Cumberland of the Brent Era, it's a full blown energy fest.
There is a good Esau and a rollicking Big RR with extendo jam...
Second set... a S>F for the ages, followed by UJB>PITB for the powerslot combo.
Out of space? the joy never stops... Truckin>Wharf Rat... followed by a Miracle>Touch to close, and a JGB to close out the encore slot in style!!!

And it's being suggested that 4/17/82 is a better show?
I won't even go into some of the higher ranked (meaning, closer to 100)... I will put it up against this one show, song for song, and say, hands down, it trumps it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kochman wrote:
In fact, I'm going to ask for the breakdown of why 10/21/83 didn't make it... you glossed over that when I asked previously. No cop outs... you ain't a cop, are ya?

Are you saying it was med or low?
Because it hits the set list points... maybe a CC/Ramble On Rose deduction (which if it was high would put it at either 4.75 or 4.5), but if 4.25s made it, I'd love to know specifically how it wasn't a 4.25 or higher in the Swami's Estimation?

Here's my Estimation...
Opens with a TMNS, which isn't the ideal place for it, but a treat compared to some of its peers.
By Cumberland, perhaps the best Cumberland of the Brent Era, it's a full blown energy fest.
There is a good Esau and a rollicking Big RR with extendo jam...
Second set... a S>F for the ages, followed by UJB>PITB for the powerslot combo.
Out of space? the joy never stops... Truckin>Wharf Rat... followed by a Miracle>Touch to close, and a JGB to close out the encore slot in style!!!

And it's being suggested that 4/17/82 is a better show?
I won't even go into some of the higher ranked (meaning, closer to 100)... I will put it up against this one show, song for song, and say, hands down, it trumps it.


I Low-bombed 10-21-83 because I feel that it was somewhat of an off-night, which is how you feel about 4-17-82. I get it. I'm not really interested in reconciling our differences of opinion on certain shows - would rather focus on the great shows that we agree on, and enjoy the music.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edit:
I'll ignore the extremely passive aggressive tone of your reply and say, I agree...

There is no accounting for taste, and taste is clearly what drew the line here. I just wanted to be sure that is what it was. Sorry if that was stress provoking.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swami. I think one or two RCMH shows made the list of nominations. Were they even close to making the top 100? I'm guessing no, but out of curiosity I'd like to know.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fillmoreeast wrote:
swami. I think one or two RCMH shows made the list of nominations. Were they even close to making the top 100? I'm guessing no, but out of curiosity I'd like to know.


What does RCMH standf for?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know whether you are pulling my leg or not but it's Radio City Music Hall

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamiGD80s wrote:
fillmoreeast wrote:
swami. I think one or two RCMH shows made the list of nominations. Were they even close to making the top 100? I'm guessing no, but out of curiosity I'd like to know.


What does RCMH standf for?

Radio City Music Hall (I had to google it).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fillmoreeast wrote:
I don't know whether you are pulling my leg or not but it's Radio City Music Hall


Looks like only 10/30 was nominated, and it rated a 3.75 - not on the edge of the Top 100.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dug 3/12/81 yesterday #29 PoL show. Never heard this show before or was even aware of it. I've been bouncing around lately from 68-69 to early 80s shows and have not listened to a 70s show in about two weeks. Many of the PoL shows are uncharted territory (not all, but a lot) and I'm enjoying the hell out of all the shows I've listened to recently.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that show has a pretty good AUD, which is probably my number one take away from the PoL... AUDs I've neglected, but that are hot.

SBD sourced shows having a difference of opinions are not going to change... new AUDs are good for diversification!+




fillmoreeast wrote:
I don't know whether you are pulling my leg or not but it's Radio City Music Hall

Hahhaah, I was surprised myself.
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fillmoreeast



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listening to 5/16/81 Barton Hall show (thought it should have rated higher) Absolutely love this show! It beats 5/8/77 any day imho. The 77' shows at times are just exactly too perfect if you get my drift. There too polished for my taste. Some, not all. 5/16/81 has my favorite High Time. LIG is off the hook. The set list to this show is irresistible and the band do not disappoint.

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Kochman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fillmoreeast wrote:
Listening to 5/16/81 Barton Hall show (thought it should have rated higher) Absolutely love this show! It beats 5/8/77 any day imho. The 77' shows at times are just exactly too perfect if you get my drift. There too polished for my taste. Some, not all. 5/16/81 has my favorite High Time. LIG is off the hook. The set list to this show is irresistible and the band do not disappoint.

Yes! That show is amazing! If I remember correctly it features a great Spanish Jam.
I can't be sure if I like it better than that 77 Barton, but I agree with the idea that some 77 are too exactly perfect... kind of have the same feeling about the RCMH shows.

That being said, it's nice to know they can be exactly perfect when called on!

Love them boys.
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fillmoreeast



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest my biggest interest in h RCMH shows are the acoustic sets which are not everyone's cup of tea. I love them. Some purists feel the 70' acoustic sets were way better. I disagree. Although I enjoy them, the technology back the was light yrs. away what they had only 10 yrs. later. They were always complaining the monitors were not working properly and they couldn't hear themselves. Those sets do not sound nearly as good as the 80 sets. Another factor is many of those older sets were just Weir and Garcia. In 80' it was the whole band playing and it made a huge difference. I missed the 70' sets but caught a few of the RCMH shows. One night we had 8th row center! To hear Bird Song, Cassady, Ripple, Dire Wolf and others was just such a treat in that setting. I guess it's pretty obvious that I dig me some acoustic Dead now and then. Since you started playing guitar do you appreciate the acoustic sets more than you did before you started playing?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, not really. I prefer electric even when playing.

It has definitely led to a further appreciation for some songs though.
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