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Taper's Section extras / exclusives

 
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Grateful_nirvanA



Joined: 25 Aug 2009
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Location: Fargo, North Dakota

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:40 pm    Post subject: Taper's Section extras / exclusives Reply with quote

So, I have been touring through the CDRs I made from the Taper's Section @ dead.net and have discovered several items that were posted there that do not exist elsewhere. Below is a partial list of the dates and tracks that I have either created new entries for or have added to material that existed on that date (additional tracks for the most part). I have reviewed this information against the download links here and archive.org as a pseudo verification of my assertion. All are SBDs. If you are interested in this material, just let me know and I'll gladly send you CDRs in trade.

1969-05-03 Winterland - Lovelight (This is a SBD, with strong Pig on vocals, not the Aud sourced here.)
1969-06-20 Fillmore East - Lovelight (A good version, with a nasty cut at the end. Not a barn burner, but it does feature some unique keyboard playing in the first 5 minutes (I can't tell if it's Pig or TC, sorry.))
1970-06-04 Fillmore West - Candyman (A+ quality, a quantum leap better than the other three songs in circulation.)
1970-06-12 Honolulu, HI - Cryptical > Drums > O1 > Cryptical (There are some mic troubles in this one, which are kind of obvious at the beginning of the Other One; Bobby can clearly be heard saying "yeah, this one" just before he sings the first verse. The quality on this is much much better than the CR&S that begins the 6/13 show.)
1970-07-03 Calgary, AB - China > Rider, Lovelight (The C > R is solid but unremarkable. Same for Lovelight. Both sound fantastic.)
1972-04-07 London, ENG - Loser, Mr. Charlie, Playing, Ramble On, Sugar Mag, NFA > GDTRFB > NFA (All of these sound great!)
1977-04-29 NY, NY //Help > Slip > Frank, Minglewood, Cassidy, UJB (As stated later by Nick J, the H>S>F is white hot. Seemingly, the quality improves over the course of the suite. The sound is much better on the remaining 3 tracks than it is on the H>S>F.)
1979-04-21 - //Shakedown St. > Jams on the Shakedown theme (Although listed as a soundcheck, I'd be inclined to believe this was a studio rehearsal based on the sound of the material here compared to the 4/22/79 show material. This jam cuts in during the only slice of lyrics to Shakedown and then meanders all over the place (total running time just under 15 minutes). The first 7-8 minutes are pure bliss as the band jams all over the Shakedown theme. Things slow down a bit after that, but it's a nice jam overall.)
1984-07-06 Jack Straw > Big RR, Space > Mr. Fantasy > O1 > Peter > Do It In The Road > Around Jam > Sugar Mag (A pretty good recording from what must have been a cassette master. It's nice, but the Aud source is nice too.)

This is most of what I've found so far. There will probably be a few more nuggets in the discs that I haven't reviewed and researched. As I find them, I'll get them posted for those who may be interested. Enjoy!


Last edited by Grateful_nirvanA on Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:21 am; edited 2 times in total
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Grateful_nirvanA



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess everyone else is not as interested in this thread as I was/am. Oh well. I did go ahead and add some reviews of the material for reference.

I also went over to LSP member light into ashes' blog, which confirmed my assertions about the above noted songs and listed a bunch more that have only found our ears via the Taper's section.

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I've also discovered a Shakedown-esque soundcheck jam from 4/21/79, the day before Brent's first GD show. I hope to get a good listen to it tonight.
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tizi



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a question (maybe I ask the obvious): the Taper's Section is - as I understand - a patchworks or pieces of GD shows posted at the dead web site which once were allowed for downloading.

But ... are those "sections" of shows pieces of shows available at the LMA or simply rare and unavailable shows in other ways.

The other question is: can I consider to have a "complete" GD collection once I download everything from the LMA and I have the officially released shows or .... there is more! Confused

This last question is like Hamlet's "to be or not to be" and I am waiting for the answer meditating with the skull in my hand!

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Grateful_nirvanA



Joined: 25 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tizi wrote:
I have a question (maybe I ask the obvious): the Taper's Section is - as I understand - a patchworks or pieces of GD shows posted at the dead web site which once were allowed for downloading.


You are sort of correct. For the first year and a half or so if its existence, you could download MP3s from the Taper's Section as well as listen to them in streaming format. Shortly after Rhino acquired the GD catalog for release, the Taper's Section went to a streaming-only format.

tizi wrote:
But ... are those "sections" of shows pieces of shows available at the LMA or simply rare and unavailable shows in other ways.


The shows I have listed are not available at the LSP and, since they are soundboards, they are not available at LMA either. As far as I know, LMA does not have any of the material from the Taper's Section available in any form.

tizi wrote:
The other question is: can I consider to have a "complete" GD collection once I download everything from the LMA and I have the officially released shows or .... there is more! Confused


There seemingly will always be more. I'm not even sure that David Lemieux, or his predecessor Dick Latvala, have a complete handle on the catalog of recordings in the Vault. What I do know is that light into ashes' blog is a pretty good reference to the Taper's Section and I would recommend checking his blog against the LMA in order to best estimate what is known of the history of recorded GD music, at least publicly.

tizi wrote:
This last question is like Hamlet's "to be or not to be" and I am waiting for the answer meditating with the skull in my hand!


As always, no one source will ever tell you what you want to know in one tidy, convenient package. A lot of effort by a lot of people have dated fragments and produced unexpected / "found" GD music over the years (i.e. Road Trips Vol. 1, No. 3 - The Houseboat Tapes '71). If you ever think you have it all, just take a step back, breathe, and know somewhere, someone has something you don't! This used to be really prevalent in tape trading circles. People would keep stuff just to make sure other people didn't have it. These days, other than the stuff in the Vault or JGB (Aud and SBD) stuff, most people share and post it pretty freely. And finally, I do not profess to know all about this, but since I made the post, I did feel I should give you an answer.
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nickJ



Joined: 08 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tizi,

The Tapers Section at dead.net isn't necessarily "exclusive" material that doesn't circulate in any other form. Some of it is officially released material, some of it is stuff that's already in circulation in great sound, some of it is an upgrade to what currently circulates in not-so-great sound, and some of it is totally uncirculated. In the past, Lemieux has seemingly "released" nearly whole shows, but in bits and pieces -- I think he posted (almost?) all of the 5/5/78 sbd over a few different posts, which currently only circulates as an aud. I've also noticed that Charlie Miller is starting to occasionally use the Taper's Section mp3's as patch sources for shows where there's no better source to use.

To add to grateful_nirvana's list: one thing Lemieux put up that I don't think circulates otherwise is the blazing Help>Slip>Franks from 4/29/77 in sbd. The aud is ok, and some of the show was officially released as filler on the 4/30/77 Download Series release, but the bulk of it is still in the vault. This is a seriously slept-on HSF that's not to be missed.


tizi, also bear in mind that not everything the band recorded is in the Vault. Most of fall 1970 is famously missing without a trace, and Lemieux also said that most of the Jan 78 tour isn't there either (even though so-so quality sbds circulate of most of those shows), and I'm sure there's plenty more as well. Given how many insiders were taping, making copies for themselves, and/or freely letting the master tapes wander off, it seems pretty likely to me that more will surface in the future. Isn't Bear pretty tight-fisted with his recordings? I'm sure most of them are already in the Vault, but who knows?
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light into ashes



Joined: 18 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the notice, Grateful....
Some things probably slipped past my notice when compiling the list; Lemieux often adds 'hidden' songs in a set that he doesn't list (or, conversely, sometimes has broken links).
Nonetheless, my omissions aside, it's always baffled me that, as far as I know, nobody else has put a useful list like this online!

The Taper's Section is basically random selections from the Vault. These are mostly the same tape sources as what's on the LMA - but - the Vault has the advantage of having more shows in SBD form, and of course, all their tapes are masters. (Whereas the LMA copies could often be several tape-generations removed.) So while 99% of the Taper's Section is also available from alternate tape copies at the LMA, Taper's Section clips are frequently better quality - that is, when they're not in mono!
(I've listed which clips are unique to the Taper's Section, but only going up to '74; someone else will have to make a checklist of the rarities from later years.)

But the LMA collection has a different advantage, in that most Dead shows are at least represented in some form (from 1971 on, that is) - whereas the Vault has some big gaps of various months that were never archived or adequately taped - and the Vault, needless to say, has hardly any AUD tapes. But as NickJ said, with so many people in the GD family getting copies of shows, things do keep surfacing - reels from 1968 and 1971 were discovered in recent years, and more may turn up in the future.

I think Lemieux has a good fix of what's in the Vault - though on some releases he disturbingly notes that he's "just discovered" something! What's more irritating to me is that WE don't know what's in the Vault, which missing shows they might be hanging onto. The Taper's Section helps clear this fog to some extent....but for instance, occasionally some neat studio jam from '66 or '68 gets aired; they must be sitting on lots of studio rehearsal tapes - that's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to hear more of, but would never get released.

And, tizi, your collection can never be complete in any way except the most limited ones. A philosophical question for your inner Hamlet - is any collection "complete" unless you have listened to all of it? Isn't it a shelf of empty pages until the music exists in your mind?
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nickJ



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's complete enough as long as you have more than the next guy! Gimme gimme gimme! Wink

Lately I've been limiting the GD/Jerry I listen to, not in terms of frequency but in terms of choice: I'll keep three shows in the car for a month and "force" myself to really spend some time with all of them before I switch up. I'm a better head for it!
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Grateful_nirvanA



Joined: 25 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nickJ wrote:
I've also noticed that Charlie Miller is starting to occasionally use the Taper's Section mp3's as patch sources for shows where there's no better source to use.


Charlie Miller is The Man! That guy must have connections everywhere. His name is all over everything relating to the GD and taping. I hope whomever he wills his collection to will appreciate all of the work he has done to amass it.

light into ashes wrote:
I've listed which clips are unique to the Taper's Section, but only going up to '74; someone else will have to make a checklist of the rarities from later years.


I've only been giving information and reviews of material I possess in MP3 form. Unlike light into ashes' listing, I am not dealing with any portion of the Taper's Section that I cannot duplicate and share.

light into ashes wrote:
What's more irritating to me is that WE don't know what's in the Vault, which missing shows they might be hanging onto. The Taper's Section helps clear this fog to some extent....but for instance, occasionally some neat studio jam from '66 or '68 gets aired; they must be sitting on lots of studio rehearsal tapes - that's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to hear more of, but would never get released.


I agree. There are a lot of little nuggets of joy that could easily be packaged, like the '66 Rarities were, for release. I don't really understand the logic in "showing" us they have pieces of shows but never revealing just exactly what they have. I do remember when I paid $40 for the Terrapin Limited CDs (3/15/90) that the gist of paying $40 instead of $20 was because the money was supposed to fund a kind of interactive GD amusement park, which apparently will never come to exist. It was my understanding that there would be a section of the park where tapers could go and make tapes of whatever was in the vault (for a modest fee). Unfortunately, these nuggets are still in the private stash and we may never know what's in there.

light into ashes wrote:
And, tizi, your collection can never be complete in any way except the most limited ones. A philosophical question for your inner Hamlet - is any collection "complete" unless you have listened to all of it? Isn't it a shelf of empty pages until the music exists in your mind?


Amen! If you haven't listened to it, why do you have it? I have restrained my desire to download everything for this exact reason. And I routinely remove music I won't listen to again (from non-GD bands of course!). But, if you can't take the time to listen to it, in my mind, it doesn't make sense to possess it.

Finally, I do think I have a SBD of that 4/29/77 Help > Slip > Frank on an old cassette. I remember it being a great one, and it being cut at the end. I will have to go on a hunt for that baby!
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nickJ



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grateful_nirvanA wrote:
Finally, I do think I have a SBD of that 4/29/77 Help > Slip > Frank on an old cassette. I remember it being a great one, and it being cut at the end. I will have to go on a hunt for that baby!


yowza. I dl'ed mine from the TS back when I could -- that one fades in after the first minute or so of Help, but is otherwise complete. That's the one where, when Jer sings "god save the child who rings that bell", you can hear people in the audience ringing these little bells! wtf? it's very audible on the aud, but you can hear it a little on the sbd, too.
Cool


edit: and here it is if you want it:

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It's only @192, but that's what Lemieux posted. Just turn it up. Any HSF fan owes it to himself to hear this loud!

Why is this thread in the Pigpen era section, by the way?
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Grateful_nirvanA



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nickJ wrote:
Why is this thread in the Pigpen era section, by the way?


It's only in here because the material I was looking at started in '69 and runs through '72 so far.
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Grateful_nirvanA



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nickJ wrote:
Grateful_nirvanA wrote:
Finally, I do think I have a SBD of that 4/29/77 Help > Slip > Frank on an old cassette. I remember it being a great one, and it being cut at the end. I will have to go on a hunt for that baby!


yowza. I dl'ed mine from the TS back when I could -- that one fades in after the first minute or so of Help, but is otherwise complete. That's the one where, when Jer sings "god save the child who rings that bell", you can hear people in the audience ringing these little bells! wtf? it's very audible on the aud, but you can hear it a little on the sbd, too.
Cool

edit: and here it is if you want it:

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It's only @192, but that's what Lemieux posted. Just turn it up. Any HSF fan owes it to himself to hear this loud!


The download I have from the Taper's Section only has about the last 2 minutes of Help. Additionally, the Taper's Section also aired Minglewood, Cassidy, and UJB from this show. To my ears, it seems the quality on the H>S>F is not as good as it is for the other three tracks. As nickJ suggests, the material available from the Download Series (Sugaree...//, Scarlet > GDTRFB...//) and this material seem to be the only SBD portions of this show available. I did update the post at the top as well.
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nickJ



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm confused... your HSF is only a 2 minute fragment of Help? What I posted is the full 26 minutes, fading in after the first verse.

If you still have the mp3's of the other stuff from 4/29 and wouldn't mind posting them, I'd love to hear them! Don't know I missed those...
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Grateful_nirvanA



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nickJ wrote:
I'm confused... your HSF is only a 2 minute fragment of Help? What I posted is the full 26 minutes, fading in after the first verse.

If you still have the mp3's of the other stuff from 4/29 and wouldn't mind posting them, I'd love to hear them! Don't know I missed those...


On the Help, to be clear, the copy I have only has about the last 2 minutes of Help before Slip starts. Slip then runs for about 8 minutes before a fairly long Franklin's. I'm sure we have the same version.

And, if you PM me about how to upload to one of the media share sites, I'll be happy to post all of these selections for others to enjoy. I've never posted anything to any of them, so I have no real idea how to go about it. Thanks.
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Grateful_nirvanA



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:24 pm    Post subject: 1977-04-29 Taper's Section Reply with quote

Okay, so this thread should probably moved to the correct era. As the Captain is out of town, I'll start a thread for it over there. However, I think the 3 extra Taper's Section tracks from 1977-04-29 are now loading onto mediafire and should be available soon.[/code]
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Grateful_nirvanA



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:34 pm    Post subject: 1970-12-23 and the Taper's Section Reply with quote

Winterland 1970-12-23. You guys should love this one. This show and date have been a controversy for some time. What follows is brief synopsis of what I've found out.

From archive.org:
Is this really 12/23 or is it 12/17??
Controversy swirls around this setlist. Here's the setlist for this date from Bear's cassettes:

1. Me and Bobby McGee
2. Dire Wolf
3. Good Lovin'
4. Drums
5. Good Lovin'
6. Casey Jones
7. Uncle John's Band

Dick Latavla has been quoted "This is how it exists on Bear's cassettes, I can't be responsible for how Deadbase has the songs listed."

From the test file accompanying these tracks at archive.org:
This is the complete set played on 12/23/70 at Winterland. It does not include the four-song excerpt ("Hard to Handle" through "Cold Rain and Snow") from 12/17/70 that was long thought to be a part of this show. At the end, Phil says: "Good night, folks. Merry Christmas and God bless you!" And Jerry adds: "Thanks for helping us bail out the Bear!"

And now from what the extras from the Taper's Section seem to indicate.
Lemieux has posted two additional tracks for this date that are not listed or available elsewhere, CR&S and Dancin'. This seems to indicate that the Vault has more material available than they are letting on, and certainly more material than was available on Bear's cassettes. I don't care much to argue the validity of either of these positions, I'm just here to share the tracks Lemiux shared and listed as 1970-12-23 at the Taper's Section. Enjoy.

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nickJ



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was checking my tapers section mp3's against what was currently circulating and noticed that Charlie Miller used the TS mp3 to patch in this amazing version of He Was a Friend of Mine. Check it out!
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light into ashes



Joined: 18 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 12/23/70 debate!
Here are comments from a torrent of "12/17/70 Winterland?" on gdvault.com:

1. Hard to Handle
2. Candyman
3. Me and My Uncle
4. Cold Rain and Snow
5. Dancing in the Street
6. Uncle John's Band

The original notes:
"Deadlists identifies it as the Matrix, based on Eaton's transcript of the vault reel. However, when Dick copied the show to cassette, he attached the following label: "Here is something I have, that was labeled 12/17/70 - Winterland."
A long-standing confusion between this show and the Owsley benefit held at Winterland on 12/23/70, continues to infect GD tapelists. The first four songs, "Hard to Handle" through "Cold Rain and Snow," were put into general circulation by the Bay Area Tapers Group in the mid-1990s, and continue to be mislabeled as 12/23/70.
The last 2 tracks may or may not belong with this!"

Charlie Miller says -
"12/17/70 and 12/23/70 are actually a mix of 10/4/70 and 10/5/70.

btw, I have the real 12/23/70.

What I was told is that 10/4/70 and 10/5/70 were multitracked and the 12/15/70 and 12/17/70 dates were the mixdown dates. [I think he means 12/17 & 12/23.]

The Uncle John's Band put on The Golden Road box set as a bonus track is listed as 12/23/70, but it's actually from 10/4/70 (confirmed by a friend who taped 10/4/70 off the radio and still has his master). It was also played in the dead.net tapers section listed as 10/4/70."

Another listener says -
"If you compare this source of 12/17/70 with 10/4/70, you'll recognise that the performances of CR&S and UJB on this seed are from 10/4/70 (confirming Charlie's comments below).
The logical assumption would be that the following remaining tracks from "12/17/70" and "12/23/70" are all actually from 10/5/70."

And my own thoughts:

Isn't the 10-5-70 Dancing in the Streets that was released in the Download Series the same as the Archive's '12-17-70' Dancing?

Miller seems a bit mistaken in his comment. '12-17-70' may well be a mix of 10-4 and 10-5-70, but our 12-23-70 show is genuine, as you can hear from the band's comments at the end. (I also think there must be more to the show than we have!)
But he does help explain why Eaton misattributed his '12-17-70' reel, because of the wrong date on the label. (Although I'm mystified as to why the Dead would be mixing those shows 2 months later, or at all!)

The Dead almost certainly did not play a show on 12-17, and definitely not at the Matrix. It was Crosby/Garcia/Lesh at the Matrix that night.
Outside of the Hartbeats & other offshoots, the Dead never played at the Matrix after 1966 - it was simply too small a club for them.
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light into ashes



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, the story thickens!
I've done some comparisons, and it looks like Miller was definitely right in saying that our '12-17' and one of the '12-23' tapes is a mix of 10-4 and 10-5-70. This has led to some confusion within the Vault, with the same songs being attributed to different dates.

This show fragment at the Archive is the REAL 12-23-70:
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Clearly incomplete; we're still missing most of the show. (One Archive witness says the show was two hours.)

The '12-23-70' clips that Lemieux posted on the Taper's Section are NOT from this show.
The Cold Rain & Snow is from 10-4-70.
The Dancing in the Streets is from 10-5-70.

ALSO, the (Workingman's Dead bonus) Uncle John's Band labeled 12-23-70 is indeed 10-4-70. So obviously the Vault has a '12-23-70' tape that's simply a mix of the October shows. (And, just coincidentally, was made on the same day as another Winterland show.)

Now turning to our '12-17-70' tape, we find some interesting duplications:

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Cold Rain & Snow is 10-4-70 again.
Uncle John's Band is also 10-4-70.
Dancing in the Streets is, you guessed it, 10-5-70 again.
(The other three songs - Hard to Handle, Candyman, and Me & My Uncle - must presumably be from 10-5-70, unless they're from another unknown show.)

[This '12-23-70' clip is merely a partial duplicate of the above, and can be ignored:

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]

What's very interesting to me is that this December compilation of our October songs features a very different mix. (Compare the Download Series 10-5 Dancing in the Streets with the Taper's Section '12-23' mix.) Obviously the Dead had a multitrack of the October Winterland shows they could remix. Whether or not it was related to the radio broadcast, the fact that the Dead would be mixing live shows two months later strongly suggests that this was their first step towards making another live album. (And, not coincidentally, they started reference-taping their own shows again during the same weeks these studio mixes were made.)
But they must have decided to drop these selections and start over in February...
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Grateful_nirvanA



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

light into ashes wrote:
OK, the story thickens!
I've done some comparisons, and it looks like Miller was definitely right in saying that our '12-17' and one of the '12-23' tapes is a mix of 10-4 and 10-5-70. This has led to some confusion within the Vault, with the same songs being attributed to different dates.


Great research light, it's very much appreciated. I'll have to go back and listen to these different mixes now.
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