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Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring

 
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1fingerwillie



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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 3:48 pm    Post subject: Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring Reply with quote

There is a Dark Star out there where Jerry, out of the blue, plays a few notes from Bach's JJoMD (you know if from countless weddings). Anyone know when it was? I am thinking maybe early 71 (possibly 2-18). I am going on a hunt and will start with that one, but if someone knows and can save me the time I would appreciate it.

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Kochman
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring Reply with quote

1fingerwillie wrote:
There is a Dark Star out there where Jerry, out of the blue, plays a few notes from Bach's JJoMD (you know if from countless weddings). Anyone know when it was? I am thinking maybe early 71 (possibly 2-18). I am going on a hunt and will start with that one, but if someone knows and can save me the time I would appreciate it.


I don't know when it was, surely one of these guys does though...
I do know of Brent playing a Bach Fugue (the one from the horror movies all the time) though in 89. Pretty cool.
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morticia



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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Kochman wrote:
I do know of Brent playing a Bach Fugue (the one from the horror movies all the time)


That will be Bach's Toccata and Fugue in F Major then.
Though I don't recall seeing a horror film that played it all the time Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morticia wrote:
Quote:
Kochman wrote:
I do know of Brent playing a Bach Fugue (the one from the horror movies all the time)


That will be Bach's Toccata and Fugue in F Major then.
Though I don't recall seeing a horror film that played it all the time Very Happy


That's the one... and yeah, it was in that one movie... all the time Laughing
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1fingerwillie



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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear, please don't sully this potentially glorious conversation about Jerry Garcia's sublime abilities by brining up whatshisname Razz

Ok...for those following along at home....I don't think it is 2-18-71 (but on the plus side, I did just get to listen to the beautiful jam about three times--undeniably one of the all time great Dead moments.

My hunt continues...I am now thinking it is somewhere between 70-72 which is an intimidating collection of Dark Stars.

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Duderino



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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasnt there a breif Jesu out of an Other One or something, in the early 80's?
I cant think of the exact show but I'll keep my ears open.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry played this as a tuning ditty, or as a mid-space or between-song riff, a lot. But I can't pinpoint it anywhere because it's not a named file anywhere in my collection and because my brain doesn't work as well as it used to. I think it got played at the December '91 Denver run during space on one of those three nights (along with at least one other xmas tune).

I'll keep it in mind and post here next time I run across one.

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Duderino



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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found it. 3/14/81 Hartford Other One>Jesu>stella
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labelled as "Brahms tease" but it is bach. good bridge between the 2 songs.
Just listened to the post drums. This show gets some so-so reviews and I think I've listened to the first set which is uneven, but this post drums is pretty smokin, Stella is well executed and Bertha is a Jerry feuled romp

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1finger, we are forced to turn this thread into a Brent thread and slowly, slowly convert you. Laughing
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1fingerwillie



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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude - Yep that's definitely Jesu...though not the one I have in mind (quite possible my mind created the memory). The one I am looking for is definitely in the middle of a DS and it just appears out of nowhere and is gone just as quickly (at least thats how i remember it). I will find it eventually (or not).

Kotchman...you are welcome to give it your best effort....I certainly am up for trying to appreciate Brent and his fisher price organ (at least thats how it sounds to these ears).

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Kochman
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1fingerwillie wrote:
Dude - Yep that's definitely Jesu...though not the one I have in mind (quite possible my mind created the memory). The one I am looking for is definitely in the middle of a DS and it just appears out of nowhere and is gone just as quickly (at least thats how i remember it). I will find it eventually (or not).

Kotchman...you are welcome to give it your best effort....I certainly am up for trying to appreciate Brent and his fisher price organ (at least thats how it sounds to these ears).


Ok, I will ask you to listen to one Brent show, and if you like it, let me know... if you don't like it, I will not try again (until you let your guard down Laughing )
5/8/84

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And just to let you know, its Koch, pronounced like "coke"... the soda, the drug, however you prefer
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morticia



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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1fingerwillie wrote:
I certainly am up for trying to appreciate Brent and his fisher price organ (at least thats how it sounds to these ears).


First of all, welcome to the pub Mr Willie. I will not make any cheap jokes about doing the hand jive.

I am the resident Ms. Picky Very Happy
The sound you are are referring to is actually an electric piano (a Fender Rhodes in fact).
Don't ask me how, but Brent manages to make it sound really thin and tinny, whether is is deliberate so as not to crowd the the mid range frequencies along with the two guitars or not is another question.

However, by 1982 Brent was using a different stage piano with a more more natural acoustic piano sound.
With regards to his organ rig, he always used a Hammond B3 which had a very full and bluesy sound (evident on 'Scarlet Begonias', 'Sugaree' et al).
In terms of keyboard playing, Pigpen didn't come anywhere close.

Whatever, if you listen beyond the tone of his electric piano, you will appreciate his brilliant rhythm and blues playing style which brought a much needed energy to the band. His interplay with Jerry and Bob was at times breath-taking.

Go directly to 1979/10/25 and marvel at 'Shakedown Street', 'Eyes Of The World' and his amazing solo on 'Friend Of The Devil' -


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Kochman
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brilliant post Stephanie.
I mean that brilliant in the American sense of the term too, not in the British sense where the smallest good thing is brilliant, but in the big, bold, American, that was a great fucking post sense of the word.
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morticia



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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Kochman wrote:
brilliant in the American sense of the term too, not in the British sense where the smallest good thing is brilliant, but in the big, bold, American

Confused

One day Mr. K you will realise that it is quality not quantity that matters Very Happy
touche
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Kochman
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

morticia wrote:
Quote:
Kochman wrote:
brilliant in the American sense of the term too, not in the British sense where the smallest good thing is brilliant, but in the big, bold, American

Confused

One day Mr. K you will realise that it is quality not quantity that matters Very Happy
touche


Luckily, we got both! Laughing
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1fingerwillie



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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to go down, not up, so I will take a pass on the soda and drug and simply think of you as “a solid carbon fuel and carbon source used to melt and reduce iron ore.”

I started listening to 5-8-84 last night. I got through about 7 tracks before thunderstorms took out my internet. In general, I liked it quite a bit…but it didn’t really change my opinion all that much.

Right out of the gate in the first tune (Jack Straw) I am hearing what I can only describe as a plastic harpsichord coming out of the right channel. Presumably this is Brent. I don’t think I have ever listened closely enough to this era to make the kind of distinction that Morticia is making between the different stage pianos he used. What I am referring to when I make broad, uninformed statements like “I certainly am up for trying to appreciate Brent and his fisher price organ” is that fake sounding electronic stuff that emanates from his side of the stage. I unfortunately am at work today and on the drive in I put on Dicks Picks 5 - 12/26/79. I grabbed Disc 3 which had the drums space section. That space represents everything I hate about post-retirement Dead. It is filled with electronic pops and whistles that are completely divorced from any traditional musical instrument. Again, presumably this is from Brent—though I can’t be sure because (again) it doesn’t sound like any instrument I have ever heard.

I will admit that Brent’s organ playing is quite good. I have always appreciated his work on the Hammond, and I will never claim that Pigpen could come close to Keith or Brent in keyboard skills (however, when I want a kickass song about sleeping with 13 year old girls…Pigpen is my man!).

Ultimately, for me, it is probably a preference thing. I love jazz and I love country/Americana (real country not the crap that passes for country these days). I love deep, deep space…and I like that space to evolve organically from real instruments (not space that is created by computer chips). After my internet went out, I flipped on my CD player (I have a couple of the big juke box players that hold 400 CDs). I hit play and the CD that started playing was the second disc from 9-28-72. As much as I had just enjoyed the 84 show, this was different and to my ears right.

I will conclude with Dylan. A few years ago Bob Dylan put out Love and Theft and everyone raved about how good it was. It’s a great album—arguably one of the better albums of the year…but that is about it. Despite what many said and/or wanted to believe, it wasn’t as good as his great albums from the 60s and nobody should expect it to be. It is not fair to compare them because those albums from the 60s are arguably some of the best albums ever made. That’s the way I feel about comparing post-retirement Dead to pre-retirement Dead. Pre-retirement Dead is some of the best live music ever played (at least in my opinion). There is some great stuff in the late 70s, 80s and 90s…but it does not sound the same as 72-74 and I shouldn’t expect it to.

All that said…I enjoyed the 5-8-84 show. I had never heard it before and I am glad I listened and will listen again...

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Duderino



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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a lot of what you hear as "fisher price organ" his his various synth sounds.
He used a real live B-3 with a rotating Leslie speaker - used it during It's All Over Now, Samson, and a slew of other tunes. His initial piano sounds were a little tacky but as Stephanie points out, he switched to a Fender electric piano (i dont think it was a Rhodes - they have that weird warbly sound -see Keith circa 74) which had a more organic sound. I frankly like some of his synth sounds - the funky synth during 79 Shakedowns, and that weird calliope or xylophone sound he used during 83-84 were pretty cool. His sound never was as bad as Vince's. talk about fisher price... Laughing

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, willie, thanks for giving it a shot!
It took me a while before I ever really appreciated Brent, in some it may never happen.

So, how do you feel about the weird noises heard during Dark Star spacey segments, those are just as odd as anything in a 79 space I would say.
A lot of "modern era" dead (78-95) space segments, you would be amazed at how many of those noises are from the guitarists using massive distortion, etc.

And, I like the additional range that computer chips, etc. can add to music. Just more variables. I understand the more purist point of view though.
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morticia



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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Duderino wrote:
His initial piano sounds were a little tacky but as Stephanie points out, he switched to a Fender electric piano (i dont think it was a Rhodes - they have that weird warbly sound -see Keith circa 74) which had a more organic sound. I frankly like some of his synth sounds - the funky synth during 79 Shakedowns,


Bent used Fender Rhodes from the start.
That 'tacky' sound was still a Fender Rhodes, albeit a very thin and tinny Fender Rhodes sound. Listen carefully you will hear the hammers striking the tines. At first I thought it was a Wurly, but they have a much 'phatter' sound.

Remember, Fender Rhodes made several models of electric piano: the Mark 1, the Suitcase, the 88 etc. they all sounded slightly different. Some had a thinner and brighter tone than others.


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Not only that but, Chuck Monte's 'Dyno My Piano' modification added a lot of top end and brightness to the Fender Rhodes sound (as explained by Ozzie Ahlers in the JGB thread).

It is very possible he was using one of those in the early years.

The 'warbly' Fender Rhodes sound you mention is just vibrato which can be turned on or off (also Keith used chorus with his Fender Rhodes). It is not an intrinsic part of the basic piano sound.
Also they were notoriously unreliable. Brent got through about three or four different ones. I can't remember which show it is, but Bob Weir comments on the fact when Brent's Rhodes breaks down again mid gig.

The funky 'synth' sound on 79 'Shakedowns' is in fact a Hohner Clavinet, not a synth (as used by Stevie Wonder). They have a wonderfully funky duck / frog like sound.

By 1982 Brent was getting a much thicker (and more usual) sound from whatever Fender Rhodes he was using and also using a more conventional acoustic piano sound (I'm not sure what make it was, or whether it was an acoustic or electric piano, but it is definitely not a Fender Rhodes).
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1fingerwillie



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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1finger, we are forced to turn this thread into a Brent thread and slowly, slowly convert you.


Damn you. I thought that was a joke but you were serious. Somehow I have found myself in the middle of a Brent discussion.

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1fingerwillie



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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude,

I think you are right about the synth....when it bothers me it is not so much that it sounds bad its that I find it distracting. I will cede you the point about Vince.

Koch,

Don't thank me...thank you . I really did enjoy it. Send on suggestions for other particularly good shows from the period. I am looking forward to exploring further.

Morticia,

You scare me a little bit. I got to say I was relieved when I realized your post was in response to Dude's.

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Kochman
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1fingerwillie wrote:
Quote:
1finger, we are forced to turn this thread into a Brent thread and slowly, slowly convert you.


Damn you. I thought that was a joke but you were serious. Somehow I have found myself in the middle of a Brent discussion.



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Duderino



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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morticia wrote:
Quote:
Duderino wrote:
His initial piano sounds were a little tacky but as Stephanie points out, he switched to a Fender electric piano (i dont think it was a Rhodes - they have that weird warbly sound -see Keith circa 74) which had a more organic sound. I frankly like some of his synth sounds - the funky synth during 79 Shakedowns,


Bent used Fender Rhodes from the start.
That 'tacky' sound was still a Fender Rhodes, albeit a very thin and tinny Fender Rhodes sound. Listen carefully you will hear the hammers striking the tines. At first I thought it was a Wurly, but they have a much 'phatter' sound.

Remember, Fender Rhodes made several models of electric piano: the Mark 1, the Suitcase, the 88 etc. they all sounded slightly different. Some had a thinner and brighter tone than others.


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Not only that but, Chuck Monte's 'Dyno My Piano' modification added a lot of top end and brightness to the Fender Rhodes sound (as explained by Ozzie Ahlers in the JGB thread).

It is very possible he was using one of those in the early years.

The 'warbly' Fender Rhodes sound you mention is just vibrato which can be turned on or off (also Keith used chorus with his Fender Rhodes). It is not an intrinsic part of the basic piano sound.
Also they were notoriously unreliable. Brent got through about three or four different ones. I can't remember which show it is, but Bob Weir comments on the fact when Brent's Rhodes breaks down again mid gig.

The funky 'synth' sound on 79 'Shakedowns' is in fact a Hohner Clavinet, not a synth (as used by Stevie Wonder). They have a wonderfully funky duck / frog like sound.

By 1982 Brent was getting a much thicker (and more usual) sound from whatever Fender Rhodes he was using and also using a more conventional acoustic piano sound (I'm not sure what make it was, or whether it was an acoustic or electric piano, but it is definitely not a Fender Rhodes).


You clearly know more than me!!!! Yup, that sound is a Clavinet - I dig that.

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1fingerwillie



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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that means we are moving into a Kubrick discussion I am, to say the least, very pleased. Big fan.

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Kochman
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, why not!?
Last week I re-watched "Full Metal Jacket" for about the 100th time. I enjoy the movie a lot, but share some of the typical complaints... 1 being that after boot camp, the rest is downhill, poorly done and very "Hollyweird" type take on war.
I asked this old marine about it, and boot camp. He told me 3 people killed themselves from his platoon during boot camp. I called bullshit on him. Platoons are about 40-50 men in boot camp. That is almost 10% suicide rate.
Anyhow, I don't doubt many people did break and put themselves out of the game.

Which is your favorite Kubrick movie?
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morticia



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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I am bailing out of this thread. I wouldn't want to scare anybody.
Scary ? petite moi ?

Confused

BTW - you started the discussion, if I recall correctly:
Quote:
I certainly am up for trying to appreciate Brent and his fisher price organ (at least thats how it sounds to these ears).

Confused
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1fingerwillie



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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of inviting mockery...I really love Eyes Wide Shut...I know it is universally panned but I love the way it looks and sounds. My favorite though is probably the Shining, though if I ever could figure out 2001 that might move into the top spot. Honorable mention to Paths of Glory. I am not a huge fan of older B&W films but this one is worth watching a number of times.

If you have a blu-ray player all the kubrick movies are being released in that format. Things like 2001 are stunning. .

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Shining is probably my favorite just because of the memorable images and the way it was shot, and also the way the building was portrayed as a character in a way.
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1fingerwillie wrote:
At the risk of inviting mockery...I really love Eyes Wide Shut...I know it is universally panned but I love the way it looks and sounds.


I like Eyes Wide Shut, but again, I do have some criticisms.
The fact that it was all that suspense and intrigue, for NOTHING, irked me. Twisted [CENSORED] cult theme was cool, but to follow it up with a bunch of coincidences and exaggerations... no pay off.
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morticia,

Perhaps scared is not the right word...intimidated perhaps. That is some serious knowledge you are bringing to the table. Joking aside, I actually find it fascinating. I know next to nothing about this type of thing but I enjoy trying to figure out what sounds I am hearing and how they are being made. When you get a chance I would love to hear more about Keith's setup over the years.

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morticia



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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1fingerwillie wrote:
When you get a chance I would love to hear more about Keith's setup over the years


I'm sorry but I can't help much with that one
All I know is that he started off at the end of 1971 with a grand piano on stage and also used a Fender Rhodes along the way. It's quite common to use a chorus effect with a Rhodes piano: it's a classic sound.

I have only looked into Brent's setup because:
A) I am a keyboard player
2) I could not place that 'spoons on half empty milk bottles' sound that he got 1979 - 1981.

Keith's piano setups are recognisable as obviously being um, well a grand piano and a classic Fender Rhodes sound. I'm not whether he used synths much.
I am afraid I am not a great fan of the Keith and Donna years I have to say.
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light into ashes



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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:18 pm    Post subject: Jesu! Reply with quote

I believe Garcia quoted Jesu in the 11-30-73 Dark Star jam - he might also have done it in the 10-25-73 Dark Star. I can try to confirm later.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Jesu! Reply with quote

light into ashes wrote:
I believe Garcia quoted Jesu in the 11-30-73 Dark Star jam - he might also have done it in the 10-25-73 Dark Star. I can try to confirm later.


Welcome light into ashes.
I would like to thank you for posting on behalf of the LSP (how 1fingerwillie found us).

Good to see your first post up!
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light into ashes



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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My mistake - apparently it doesn't show up in the 10-25-73 Dark Star, but in the 10-19-73 Morning Dew....
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10/28/84 - found a tease toward the back end of space before they head into the Wheel

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found one on 6/9/91 - in Space, right before the Other One.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duderino wrote:
I found one on 6/9/91 - in Space, right before the Other One.


Kick ass show. Easily the best one I saw that summer.
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